From juanvr at live.com Wed Jul 1 00:02:51 2009 From: juanvr at live.com (Juan) Date: Wed Jul 1 00:03:25 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Overclocking and Linux (Ubuntu) Message-ID: Hey guys. I was wondering... are there any tests I could run on Linux/Ubuntu that would give me a proper stability test? Now, I know kernel compiles normally gives errors on massively OC'd kit, but I'd like to test everything... CPU, RAM, Graphics, Hard-drives... And I would love if it could give me an "overall" picture of what's going on... So, if I overclock my CPU/memory any furthur, would it show on the results? When would I know where the stable limit is? Any ideas? Thanks... **some background** I used windows for all my benchmarking for everything till this point... I know that Linux (or unix in general) is a bit more sensitive on the overclocking front. I'd like to run my kit as fast as possible without sacrificing stability in ANY form. I'm a bit of a hardware nut, so my timings/voltages/busses/multipliers/C1E/Speedstep/etc. are all already tweaked :) From Chilling_Silence at orcon.net.nz Wed Jul 1 01:26:32 2009 From: Chilling_Silence at orcon.net.nz (Chilling_Silence) Date: Wed Jul 1 01:26:42 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Overclocking and Linux (Ubuntu) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2987f0d40906300626p701927d9rcea443df165419aa@mail.gmail.com> A basic test we used when testing the EeePC back in the first few weeks of them being available was Geekbench:http://www.primatelabs.ca/geekbench/ On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 12:02 AM, Juan wrote: > Hey guys. > > I was wondering... are there any tests I could run on Linux/Ubuntu that > would give me a proper stability test? > > Now, I know kernel compiles normally gives errors on massively OC'd kit, > but I'd like to test everything... CPU, RAM, Graphics, Hard-drives... And I > would love if it could give me an "overall" picture of what's going on... > So, if I overclock my CPU/memory any furthur, would it show on the results? > When would I know where the stable limit is? > > Any ideas? > > Thanks... > > **some background** > I used windows for all my benchmarking for everything till this point... > I know that Linux (or unix in general) is a bit more sensitive on the > overclocking front. > I'd like to run my kit as fast as possible without sacrificing stability in > ANY form. > I'm a bit of a hardware nut, so my > timings/voltages/busses/multipliers/C1E/Speedstep/etc. are all already > tweaked :) > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From Daemonax at orcon.net.nz Wed Jul 1 04:12:24 2009 From: Daemonax at orcon.net.nz (Daemonax) Date: Wed Jul 1 04:12:37 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] GNU+Linux from Source Code In-Reply-To: <1246346140.3147.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1246346140.3147.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1246378344.6333.2.camel@studypad> On Tue, 2009-06-30 at 19:15 +1200, Bryan Baldwin wrote: > Hello all, > > I'm developing a prototype build system for GNU+Linux that can be used > stand-alone or as the base for other more refined distributions with > specialized goals. My impetus is to have a flexible design for a system > I would love administering. The vision for my project is to be to > Archlinux what gNewSense is to Ubuntu. > That is the type of system that I've often wished existed. I use gNewSense currently, but would have preferred something more like Arch that provides me with a minimal base system upon which I can install/compile whatever I like. If you even get this up and running I would probably be interested in making some small contributions. But until then I'll hold off, there are too many new distributions dreamed up that don't take off. But if you get a decent base together that'd be great. From pieter at insync.za.net Wed Jul 1 07:46:07 2009 From: pieter at insync.za.net (Pieter De Wit) Date: Wed Jul 1 07:46:51 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: AuckLUG Digest, Vol 49, Issue 33 In-Reply-To: <732F909E6B12D549BACC18BB5E68945F069AC928@vfnz-ms1.vf-nz.internal.vodafone.com> References: <20090630035618.40BEB1DB8158@titania.wxnz.net> <20090630050938.F41FC1DB810D@titania.wxnz.net> <732F909E6B12D549BACC18BB5E68945F069AC928@vfnz-ms1.vf-nz.internal.vodafone.com> Message-ID: Hi Guys, You can have a look at http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=151 This is the work I did when Vodacom (South Africa's Vodafone) launched the "same" devices. They have a pretty active Linux group there to the point where it was "almost offically" supported Old but still some nice info/hints and tips :) Cheers, Pieter On Tue, 30 Jun 2009, Kealey, Martin, ihug-NZ wrote: > >> I just rang Vodafone to get 1. prices and 2. modem >> brandname/model information, so I could google for drivers and/or >> linux support information. > > In future ask for the business support team; they actually have a few clues. > >> They want to charge $40 monthly for an open term 200mb plan, > > Generally it's cheaper bundled with something else like voice as well. Still stupidly expensive compared with fixed-line broadband, but if you live in a house-bus it might be worth it. > >> she couldn't tell me the brand or chipset information of the modem. > > They're Huawei devices. Probably E800 or thereabouts. > > There are both external USB devices and USB-faked-over-PCMCIA -- which looks a lot tidier. Same chipset either way, depending on which release revision they're up to; and so same drivers too. > >> Then she says the only supported >> operating systems are Windows vista, xp, 2000, etc. "Someone >> might have made >> drivers on the internet. > > Yes, Vodafone Spain. http://www.vodafone.es/ > > (Best to use Google unless you can read Spanish.) > > The trick to making it work is you *must* supply username and non-blank password, otherwise the Python script in the driver throws and exception, even though there's no username or password actually needed -- it authenticates off the SIM's mobile phone number (MSISDN in Telco speak). (Yes the card takes a SIM just like any other GSM phone.) > >> Their modem itself is $250.. $50 more than the >> Telecom mobile modem. And Telecom mobile do a 500mb open term >> contract for $35, and from reports on an ubuntu forum it does work (as >> well). So I'm thinking I'm leaning towards them now. > > I'll let marketing know they're behind the eight-ball on this one. (Being like marketing in any other large telco, I'm not promising they'll listen, of course.) > > Don't be expecting miracles of speed; if you're not in good 3G coverage, it's back to GPRS ("2G"), which approximates dial-up speed. And the packetizing leads to pretty horrible latency even when you do have good coverage -- 55 ms is about as low as I've seen; better than Woosh's 70 ms, but only just. > > -Martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (lots of whitespace to push away the cruft that will get added below) > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Have you seen our website?.... http://www.vodafone.co.nz > > Manage Your Account, check your Vodafone Mail and send web2TXT online: http://www.vodafone.co.nz/myvodafone > > CAUTION: This correspondence is confidential and intended for the named recipient(s) only. > If you are not the named recipient and receive this correspondence in error, you must not copy, > distribute or take any action in reliance on it and you should delete it from your system and > notify the sender immediately. Thank you. > > Unless otherwise stated, any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do > not represent those of Vodafone New Zealand Limited. > > Vodafone New Zealand Limited > 20 Viaduct Harbour Avenue, Private Bag 92161, Auckland 1030 > Telephone + 64 9 355 2000 > Facsimile + 64 9 355 2001 > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From baldwin.bryanmichael at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 09:31:46 2009 From: baldwin.bryanmichael at gmail.com (Bryan Baldwin) Date: Wed Jul 1 09:32:15 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] GNU+Linux from Source Code In-Reply-To: <1246378344.6333.2.camel@studypad> References: <1246346140.3147.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1246378344.6333.2.camel@studypad> Message-ID: <1246397506.3147.130.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-07-01 at 04:12 +1200, Daemonax wrote: > That is the type of system that I've often wished existed. I use > gNewSense currently, but would have preferred something more like Arch > that provides me with a minimal base system upon which I can > install/compile whatever I like. > > If you even get this up and running I would probably be interested in > making some small contributions. But until then I'll hold off, there are > too many new distributions dreamed up that don't take off. But if you > get a decent base together that'd be great. Than is in fact the focus on which I am working. Having a rolling release of buildscripts is one of my more hopeful goals. Of course, all of the work that I do to administrate my own machines will get put in, but the crucial factor for success is getting enough maintainers to put in the work needed to support a respectable catalogue of buildable software. Once I have posted the next revision of GLFSC, buildscript maintainers will be what I'll need the most. GNU+Linux from Source Code as a design won't even need buildscripts to be useful, but it wouldn't be an actual distribution until you can get a bootable machine out of just what comes with it. Just for starters, I'm only planning to support the basic system (a la Linux from Scratch/DIY Linux packages), and scale up from there. Since I mean to be a meta-distribution, there are some lines I do not intend to cross. I haven't reckoned what they all are yet, but there will be a point past which policy changes mean than the system has become a different distribution (or at least your own personal version). That's what I see GLFSC as in the first place, a base for other people's distributions. I support the distribution maker, and they ultimately support the user (although they, like me, may be their only user). Bryan From tobias.gerschner at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 09:45:32 2009 From: tobias.gerschner at gmail.com (Tobias Gerschner) Date: Wed Jul 1 09:45:42 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Venue for next meeting Message-ID: Hi, Can someone post some info ( link ? ) about the venue for next meeting on Monday. Just asking to know what is available in terms of power points , projectors ... ? Thanks -- Tobias Gerschner Yoper Linux - www.yoper.com Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do. From kiirani at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 12:46:59 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Wed Jul 1 12:47:18 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] GNU+Linux from Source Code In-Reply-To: <1246397506.3147.130.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1246346140.3147.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1246378344.6333.2.camel@studypad> <1246397506.3147.130.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <2494ad260906301746m5d7afd06j958c29cc43e3a2e6@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/1 Bryan Baldwin : > Than is in fact the focus on which I am working. Having a rolling > release of buildscripts is one of my more hopeful goals. Of course, all > of the work that I do to administrate my own machines will get put in, > but the crucial factor for success is getting enough maintainers to put > in the work needed to support a respectable catalogue of buildable > software. Hey Bryan, I'm intrigued but now a little confused -- are you going to be creating a meta-distribution with a full repository of automated build scripts for common software, like gentoo, or are you going to be providing a happy medium between LFS and full distributions, with tools to make compiling and installing software easy, but no actual package repo involved? From nevynh at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 12:47:42 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Wed Jul 1 12:47:54 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: AuckLUG Digest, Vol 49, Issue 33 In-Reply-To: <20090630050938.F41FC1DB810D@titania.wxnz.net> References: <20090630035618.40BEB1DB8158@titania.wxnz.net> <20090630050938.F41FC1DB810D@titania.wxnz.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 5:08 PM, James Carroll wrote: > > One last thing... How formal is this mailing list? I'm wary of filling any > lists I'm on with noise. Hi James, The LUG isn't really all that formal at all. There are some guidelines to refer to here: http://auckland.linux.net.nz/aup.html We're not really all that strict about the guidelines either. You may get the occasional prod here and there telling you to watch your quoting (generally only quote the stuff that's relevant to your post) and that sort of thing (I got one such prod the other day). Basically the group is a fairly informal one and has been kept informal on purpose. There is occasionally comments about replying protocol - top-posting vs. bottom posting - this is something that gets discussed here fairly regularly but the general consensus is try to bottom post BUT if something's started out with top posting, just follow whatevers happened previously as mixed posting is a worse evil than any one approach. Regards, Nevyn. From nevynh at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 12:49:25 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Wed Jul 1 12:49:33 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Venue for next meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Tobias Gerschner wrote: > Hi, > > Can someone post some info ( link ? ) about the venue for next meeting > on Monday. Just asking to know what is available in terms of power > points , projectors ... ? > > Thanks I'll be giving them a call this afternoon. From what I saw though, because it is a gaming lounge, power points shouldn't be a problem and they had a projector and a large screen TV - each of which may be suitable for our needs. Regards, Nevyn. From nevynh at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 13:00:47 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Wed Jul 1 13:07:11 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] NZOSS meeting... In-Reply-To: References: <00bd01c9f924$4f231d50$ed6957f0$@co.nz> <5b6001920906291858j6f76208ey833e985c236c9ee5@mail.gmail.com> <00c301c9f927$4b3c8cf0$e1b5a6d0$@co.nz> <5b6001920906291920w5daab995j9e88a4412a3e72e5@mail.gmail.com> <5b6001920906292002p27e14c50md0e72975a5dd743d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Actually, I think the most important thing to remember here is that we've been discussing this for about 5 minutes. NZOSS have been going for years and I assume have spent a significant amount of time approaching people... :) Still - good 'lil debate. On Tue, Jun 30, 2009 at 11:41 PM, Mark Foster wrote: > > > Kevin > I think the two-pronged approach has some smarts; the CEO is going to > consult his head techies (CIO/CTO) and they are, as Nevyn says, likely to > steer towards the environments theyre familiar with. > > The truly enlightened are those who do indeed focus on the outcome, and the > bigger picture on the means-to-get-there. > > It may look like i'm fence-sitting... i'm not.. honest :o From martin at kurahaupo.gen.nz Wed Jul 1 14:03:26 2009 From: martin at kurahaupo.gen.nz (Martin D Kealey) Date: Wed Jul 1 14:03:37 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: AuckLUG Digest, Vol 49, Issue 33 In-Reply-To: References: <20090630035618.40BEB1DB8158@titania.wxnz.net> <20090630050938.F41FC1DB810D@titania.wxnz.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, Nevyn wrote: > BUT if something's started out with top posting, just follow whatever's > happened previously, as mixed posting is a worse evil than any one > approach. Of course, if one is actually taking care to trim quotes to just the relevant portions, it's relatively little extra effort to re-order them to bottom-posting order. -Martin From scott.newton at integralgroup.co.nz Wed Jul 1 15:03:25 2009 From: scott.newton at integralgroup.co.nz (Scott Newton) Date: Wed Jul 1 15:03:38 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] [ADVERT] Paid tutoring required Message-ID: <200907011503.25865.scott.newton@integralgroup.co.nz> Michael Snowden has contacted me and is looking for someone (preferably a uni student) to sit down with him and help him with the issues listed below. To quote: I am looking for a student at either University of Auckland or University of Auckland Technology who might be available for a custom consulting job for help with highly detailed custom configuration and use of several LINUX application softwares. I will be visiting Auckland July 19 - 26. He is willing to pay the standard university pay scale for student labour for this help. If anyone is interested in helping him out could you please contact him directly on the email address given above. He is not subscribed to AuckLUG so please don't reply to the mailing list :-) Thanks LINUX Lessons Needed (installation, configuration, use with Ubuntu) o lessons with JSTAR (a clone of joe editor) o UnixTree - learn how to install and configure the latest version - lessons on some of the subtle uses of it o fvwm2 - install the latest version (2.5.26?) - some hot keys for .fvwm2rc file - hot key for mouse buttons - deconify - open an xterm from the keyboard - investigate the FakeClick command for key binding use (what is it?) o lessons on the use of Lynx o clean out red eye in .jpg images - Gimp? o standard cassette tape recordings --------> mp3 - is there a better way to create them than Krecord? - practice together the use of Krecord or any better one o Audacity - installed - find an instruction manual - lessons on using it to edit .mp3 files - Is there a better software for this purpose? o mouseemu explained - it is described on the Web - install and try o how to stuff a screen dump at the command line in fvwm into a file o find which parallel-USB adapter will work with LINUX for printing with an old printer o install Netscape 4.0 - The point here is not to use this old browser. - It has unique display features which can be used for demonstrations. o find a LINUX viewer for playing .wmv video files o some highly detailed Open Office configurations -- Regards Scott Newton | R&D Solution Specialist | Integral Technology Group Ltd 95 Ascot Ave, Greenlane | PO Box 302313, North Harbour, North Shore City 0751 DDI 09 302 3788 | Fax 09 477 0478 | www.integralgroup.co.nz From baldwin.bryanmichael at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 15:04:39 2009 From: baldwin.bryanmichael at gmail.com (Bryan Baldwin) Date: Wed Jul 1 15:04:53 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] GNU+Linux from Source Code In-Reply-To: <2494ad260906301746m5d7afd06j958c29cc43e3a2e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1246346140.3147.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1246378344.6333.2.camel@studypad> <1246397506.3147.130.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2494ad260906301746m5d7afd06j958c29cc43e3a2e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1246417479.15132.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-07-01 at 12:46 +1200, Kennedy Skelton wrote: > > Hey Bryan, I'm intrigued but now a little confused -- are you going to > be creating a meta-distribution with a full repository of automated > build scripts for common software, like gentoo, or are you going to be > providing a happy medium between LFS and full distributions, with > tools to make compiling and installing software easy, but no actual > package repo involved? > Neither and both. I'm not trying to follow the development guides established by any other distribution. I've set no limits or goals on the quantity of builds supported by GLFSC beyond the basesystem. That will scale naturally with community interest and the number of build maintainers. The only restriction is that GLFSC is a FaiF project, and does not support builds for non-free software as defined by gnu.org http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html I actually foresee GLFSC being structure a lot like Archlinux plus AUR, but without any binary packages or non-free software. From blakjak at blakjak.net Wed Jul 1 15:07:30 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Wed Jul 1 15:07:39 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: AuckLUG Digest, Vol 49, Issue 33 In-Reply-To: References: <20090630035618.40BEB1DB8158@titania.wxnz.net> <20090630050938.F41FC1DB810D@titania.wxnz.net> Message-ID: <7226.219.88.73.199.1246417650.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> On Wed, July 1, 2009 2:03 pm, Martin D Kealey wrote: > > On Wed, 1 Jul 2009, Nevyn wrote: >> BUT if something's started out with top posting, just follow whatever's >> happened previously, as mixed posting is a worse evil than any one >> approach. > > Of course, if one is actually taking care to trim quotes to just the > relevant portions, it's relatively little extra effort to re-order them to > bottom-posting order. > Heh, I knew one of the older school would come up with some way of arguing in favour of bottom posting ;-) From kiirani at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 16:55:39 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Wed Jul 1 16:55:52 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] GNU+Linux from Source Code In-Reply-To: <1246417479.15132.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1246346140.3147.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1246378344.6333.2.camel@studypad> <1246397506.3147.130.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2494ad260906301746m5d7afd06j958c29cc43e3a2e6@mail.gmail.com> <1246417479.15132.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <2494ad260906302155m3d58fd57r1c9a555ebe047f5e@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/1 Bryan Baldwin : > On Wed, 2009-07-01 at 12:46 +1200, Kennedy Skelton wrote: >> >> Hey Bryan, I'm intrigued but now a little confused -- are you going to >> be creating a meta-distribution with a full repository of automated >> build scripts for common software, like gentoo, or are you going to be >> providing a happy medium between LFS and full distributions, with >> tools to make compiling and installing software easy, but no actual >> package repo involved? >> > > Neither and both. I'm not trying to follow the development guides > established by any other distribution. I've set no limits or goals on > the quantity of builds supported by GLFSC beyond the basesystem. That > will scale naturally with community interest and the number of build > maintainers. The only restriction is that GLFSC is a FaiF project, and > does not support builds for non-free software as defined by gnu.org > > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html > > I actually foresee GLFSC being structure a lot like Archlinux plus AUR, > but without any binary packages or non-free software. I don't know, this smells a lot like gentoo without support for non-free software to me... Have you looked into basing the system around gentoo or portage, then? ie create your own guidelines, philosophy, and repository, but use the (excellent) tools that another install-from-source distribution has rather than try and develop your own? From nevynh at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 17:10:59 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Wed Jul 1 17:11:06 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Meeting Details Message-ID: Topic: Virtualisation (KVM, Virtual Box, libvirt and Xen) Speakers: Tobias (Virtual Box), Jaco (KVM, libvirt) and Nevyn (Xen from a technology point of view of the technology rather than implementation). When: 7pm, 6th July, 2009 Where: RvB - 155 Karangahape Road, Auckland. From street level there's just a single door leading downstairs. http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=155+Karangahape+Rd,+Auckland+Central,+Auckland+1010&vps=2&jsv=164e&sll=-41.244772,172.617188&sspn=139.023405,206.367187&ie=UTF8&oi=georefine&ct=clnk&cd=2&geocode=FXGYzf0duqJqCg&split=0 Hope to see you all there. Regards, Nevyn. P.S. Mark - can you get this posted on linux.net.nz From Daemonax at orcon.net.nz Wed Jul 1 17:39:42 2009 From: Daemonax at orcon.net.nz (Daemonax) Date: Wed Jul 1 17:40:49 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] GNU+Linux from Source Code In-Reply-To: <2494ad260906302155m3d58fd57r1c9a555ebe047f5e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1246346140.3147.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1246378344.6333.2.camel@studypad> <1246397506.3147.130.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2494ad260906301746m5d7afd06j958c29cc43e3a2e6@mail.gmail.com> <1246417479.15132.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2494ad260906302155m3d58fd57r1c9a555ebe047f5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1246426782.6259.3.camel@studypad> > I don't know, this smells a lot like gentoo without support for > non-free software to me... Which would be wonderful. > Have you looked into basing the system around gentoo or portage, then? > ie create your own guidelines, philosophy, and repository, but use the > (excellent) tools that another install-from-source distribution has > rather than try and develop your own? > Arch build scripts are far easier to write and maintain that those gentoo things. > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug From andreas at linux.co.nz Wed Jul 1 17:51:45 2009 From: andreas at linux.co.nz (Andy Hamberger) Date: Wed Jul 1 17:53:15 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] GNU+Linux from Source Code In-Reply-To: <1246426782.6259.3.camel@studypad> References: <1246346140.3147.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1246378344.6333.2.camel@studypad> <1246397506.3147.130.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2494ad260906301746m5d7afd06j958c29cc43e3a2e6@mail.gmail.com> <1246417479.15132.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2494ad260906302155m3d58fd57r1c9a555ebe047f5e@mail.gmail.com> <1246426782.6259.3.camel@studypad> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 5:39 PM, Daemonax wrote: > > I don't know, this smells a lot like gentoo without support for > > non-free software to me... > > Which would be wonderful. > > > Purely GNU software will result in a non functional distro. Most packages will require many non Gnu packages to compile. I wont even go further than perl here, but the list goes on and on and on. it is virtually impossible, without patching and rewriting many many GNU packages. Andreas From baldwin.bryanmichael at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 18:17:23 2009 From: baldwin.bryanmichael at gmail.com (Bryan Baldwin) Date: Wed Jul 1 18:17:49 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] GNU+Linux from Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <1246346140.3147.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1246378344.6333.2.camel@studypad> <1246397506.3147.130.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2494ad260906301746m5d7afd06j958c29cc43e3a2e6@mail.gmail.com> <1246417479.15132.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2494ad260906302155m3d58fd57r1c9a555ebe047f5e@mail.gmail.com> <1246426782.6259.3.camel@studypad> Message-ID: <1246429043.15132.166.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-07-01 at 17:51 +1200, Andy Hamberger wrote: > > Purely GNU software will result in a non functional distro. Most packages > will require many non Gnu packages to compile. I wont even go further than > perl here, but the list goes on and on and on. it is virtually impossible, > without patching and rewriting many many GNU packages. > > Andreas > No one said anything about GLFSC excluding any non-gnu software. Bryan From baldwin.bryanmichael at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 18:30:28 2009 From: baldwin.bryanmichael at gmail.com (Bryan Baldwin) Date: Wed Jul 1 18:30:46 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] GNU+Linux from Source Code In-Reply-To: <2494ad260906302155m3d58fd57r1c9a555ebe047f5e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1246346140.3147.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1246378344.6333.2.camel@studypad> <1246397506.3147.130.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2494ad260906301746m5d7afd06j958c29cc43e3a2e6@mail.gmail.com> <1246417479.15132.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2494ad260906302155m3d58fd57r1c9a555ebe047f5e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1246429828.15132.177.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-07-01 at 16:55 +1200, Kennedy Skelton wrote: > > I don't know, this smells a lot like gentoo without support for > non-free software to me... > Have you looked into basing the system around gentoo or portage, then? > ie create your own guidelines, philosophy, and repository, but use the > (excellent) tools that another install-from-source distribution has > rather than try and develop your own? > No, I haven't looked at Gentoo or portage. Developing my own tools is, of course, the point of doing the work myself. Bryan From baldwin.bryanmichael at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 18:36:24 2009 From: baldwin.bryanmichael at gmail.com (Bryan Baldwin) Date: Wed Jul 1 18:36:35 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] GNU+Linux from Source Code In-Reply-To: <1246426782.6259.3.camel@studypad> References: <1246346140.3147.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1246378344.6333.2.camel@studypad> <1246397506.3147.130.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2494ad260906301746m5d7afd06j958c29cc43e3a2e6@mail.gmail.com> <1246417479.15132.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2494ad260906302155m3d58fd57r1c9a555ebe047f5e@mail.gmail.com> <1246426782.6259.3.camel@studypad> Message-ID: <1246430184.15132.184.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2009-07-01 at 17:39 +1200, Daemonax wrote: > > I don't know, this smells a lot like gentoo without support for > > non-free software to me... > > Which would be wonderful. > > > Have you looked into basing the system around gentoo or portage, then? > > ie create your own guidelines, philosophy, and repository, but use the > > (excellent) tools that another install-from-source distribution has > > rather than try and develop your own? > > > > Arch build scripts are far easier to write and maintain that those > gentoo things. > The buildscripts are a lot more like Arch. I honestly have nothing to do with Gentoo and plan to keep it that way. Bryan From kiirani at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 22:58:54 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Wed Jul 1 23:01:32 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] GNU+Linux from Source Code In-Reply-To: <1246426782.6259.3.camel@studypad> References: <1246346140.3147.71.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1246378344.6333.2.camel@studypad> <1246397506.3147.130.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2494ad260906301746m5d7afd06j958c29cc43e3a2e6@mail.gmail.com> <1246417479.15132.76.camel@localhost.localdomain> <2494ad260906302155m3d58fd57r1c9a555ebe047f5e@mail.gmail.com> <1246426782.6259.3.camel@studypad> Message-ID: <2494ad260907010358i44ba6701x1493f4c736704a69@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/1 Daemonax : >> I don't know, this smells a lot like gentoo without support for >> non-free software to me... > > Which would be wonderful. I have no complaints about the concept, just trying to establish whether that's actually what this project is about or I'm just imagining the similarities :) >> Have you looked into basing the system around gentoo or portage, then? >> ie create your own guidelines, philosophy, and repository, but use the >> (excellent) tools that another install-from-source distribution has >> rather than try and develop your own? >> > > Arch build scripts are far easier to write and maintain that those > gentoo things. They absolutely are, but portage+emerge is a much easier system to deal with from a user's point of view, I imagine largely because it's THE package manager for the system and not a secondary tool like ABS. If the automation and control of compiling on gentoo could be combined with the simplicity of writing PKGBUILDS on arch, it would be the perfect from-source package manager. 2009/7/1 Bryan Baldwin : > The buildscripts are a lot more like Arch. I honestly have nothing to do > with Gentoo and plan to keep it that way. Well, that's your prerogative but I just thought I'd throw it out there as - as a user - I found portage very powerful and flexible. Figured it may be worth a look :) From freakalad at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 2 18:08:37 2009 From: freakalad at yahoo.co.uk (Jaco van der Merwe) Date: Thu Jul 2 18:08:50 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] linux.conf.au open? Message-ID: <452756.33297.qm@web26106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> I see that that our little *backwater* made a little noise: http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/reserve-your-space-australian-stage Any ideas when pre-registration will be open? Where can I put my name down? Pre-book discounts & bundles? For the other mortals not in the know: http://www.lca2010.org.nz Monday 2010-01-18 to Friday 2010-01-23, Wellington Convention Centre - J From jethro.carr at jethrocarr.com Thu Jul 2 18:25:28 2009 From: jethro.carr at jethrocarr.com (Jethro Carr) Date: Thu Jul 2 18:44:41 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: [NZOSS-Openchat] linux.conf.au open? In-Reply-To: <452756.33297.qm@web26106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <452756.33297.qm@web26106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1246515928.19863.20.camel@lisa.jethrocarr.local> On Thu, 2009-07-02 at 06:08 +0000, Jaco van der Merwe wrote: > Any ideas when pre-registration will be open? > Where can I put my name down? Pre-book discounts & bundles? hi Jaco, There is usually (always?) early bird discounts, but I haven't seen bundle offering previously. The conference is priced very well, hobbiest tickets tend to be around $200-$300 from memory. Registration opens in October or November, you will certainly want to pre-register, in previous years the conference has sold out - not even sure if they offer tickets on sale at the door. regards, jethro -- Jethro Carr www.jethrocarr.com/index.php?cms=blog www.amberdms.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://www.linux.net.nz/pipermail/aucklug/attachments/20090702/bcec8251/attachment.pgp From steven at openmedia.co.nz Fri Jul 3 00:20:22 2009 From: steven at openmedia.co.nz (Steven Ellis) Date: Fri Jul 3 00:20:59 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Meeting Details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/07/2009, at 5:10 PM, Nevyn wrote: > Topic: Virtualisation (KVM, Virtual Box, libvirt and Xen) > Speakers: Tobias (Virtual Box), Jaco (KVM, libvirt) and Nevyn (Xen > from a technology point of view of the technology rather than > implementation). > When: 7pm, 6th July, 2009 > Where: RvB - 155 Karangahape Road, Auckland. > From street level there's just a single door leading downstairs. > http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=155+Karangahape+Rd,+Auckland+Central,+Auckland+1010&vps=2&jsv=164e&sll=-41.244772,172.617188&sspn=139.023405,206.367187&ie=UTF8&oi=georefine&ct=clnk&cd=2&geocode=FXGYzf0duqJqCg&split=0 > > Hope to see you all there. > Sounds like a plan.. I'll arrive with plenty of pre-loaded questions ;) Steven Ellis - Technical Director OpenMedia Limited email - steven@openmedia.co.nz website - http://www.openmedia.co.nz From nevynh at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 10:36:26 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Fri Jul 3 10:36:35 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Meeting Details In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 12:20 AM, Steven Ellis wrote: > > Sounds like a plan.. I'll arrive with plenty of pre-loaded questions ;) > > Steven Ellis - Technical Director In that case, I'll get ready my "shrug of unknowing" move. (left-left-kick-up) Regards, Nevyn. From boxen_foxen at maddaz.com Fri Jul 3 11:23:14 2009 From: boxen_foxen at maddaz.com (Boxen Foxen) Date: Fri Jul 3 11:23:24 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Graphics Cards on GNU/Linux Message-ID: <862861130907021623o77b328edvd67fe784e4e30c7c@mail.gmail.com> I am looking for a replacement PCI-E graphics card to run under Debian Lenny but cannot quite make a choice. General specs I require: Under NZD $500 512MB minimum DDR3 onboard memory PCI-E DVI x 2 HDMI optional OpenGL2.0 plus and most importantly will run under GNU/Linux without having to kludge too much. If anyone has an opinion or experience with newer cards please feel free to comment. Thanks in advance, BF. -- Boxen Foxen Auckland New Zealand ------------------------------- Browser - http://www.mozilla.com Encryption - http://www.gnupg.org Freedom - http://creativefreedom.org.nz Operating System - http://www.debian.org From kiirani at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 12:43:40 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Fri Jul 3 12:43:48 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Graphics Cards on GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <862861130907021623o77b328edvd67fe784e4e30c7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907021623o77b328edvd67fe784e4e30c7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2494ad260907021743y387918bfmbf3d9c4ee778e41f@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/3 Boxen Foxen : > I am looking for a replacement PCI-E graphics card to run under Debian Lenny > but cannot quite make a choice. > > General specs I require: > > Under NZD $500 > 512MB minimum > DDR3 onboard memory > PCI-E > DVI x 2 > HDMI optional > OpenGL2.0 plus > > and most importantly will run under GNU/Linux without having to kludge too > much. I've had good experiences with nvidia drivers, can't speak for ATI although a few years ago I was hearing horror stories. However, the nvidia drivers are non-free software, so running them on debian could - or perhaps I should say will? - become a headache, and last time I tried to look up how to do it I found a few conflicting instructions, most of which didn't do it for me. Barely fitting your minimum specs you could get a geforce 9600 for about $150-$200 (brief look on pricespy) So if you want to spend the full $500 then it looks like you can get an upgrade on those specs. Last time I bought a graphics card was a geforce 7600* a couple of years ago though, so I can't really recommend the best or the latest for your money. * I've had no problem with it whatsoever under gentoo and then arch. Drivers work a dream. From boxen_foxen at maddaz.com Fri Jul 3 13:02:55 2009 From: boxen_foxen at maddaz.com (Boxen Foxen) Date: Fri Jul 3 13:03:10 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Graphics Cards on GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <2494ad260907021743y387918bfmbf3d9c4ee778e41f@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907021623o77b328edvd67fe784e4e30c7c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907021743y387918bfmbf3d9c4ee778e41f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <862861130907021802p6b1de76cv3f9dba76f2664912@mail.gmail.com> Hi Kennedy, Thanks for that, I will look at getting an Nvidia GeForce 9600 or 8800GT card, the #debian guys say it will work, just will be some config'ing. Cheers, BF On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Kennedy Skelton wrote: > 2009/7/3 Boxen Foxen : > > I am looking for a replacement PCI-E graphics card to run under Debian > Lenny > > but cannot quite make a choice. > > > > General specs I require: > > > > Under NZD $500 > > 512MB minimum > > DDR3 onboard memory > > PCI-E > > DVI x 2 > > HDMI optional > > OpenGL2.0 plus > > > > and most importantly will run under GNU/Linux without having to kludge > too > > much. > > I've had good experiences with nvidia drivers, can't speak for ATI > although a few years ago I was hearing horror stories. > However, the nvidia drivers are non-free software, so running them on > debian could - or perhaps I should say will? - become a headache, and > last time I tried to look up how to do it I found a few conflicting > instructions, most of which didn't do it for me. > > Barely fitting your minimum specs you could get a geforce 9600 for > about $150-$200 (brief look on pricespy) > So if you want to spend the full $500 then it looks like you can get > an upgrade on those specs. Last time I bought a graphics card was a > geforce 7600* a couple of years ago though, so I can't really > recommend the best or the latest for your money. > > * I've had no problem with it whatsoever under gentoo and then arch. > Drivers work a dream. From david.roberts at safecom.co.nz Fri Jul 3 13:25:00 2009 From: david.roberts at safecom.co.nz (David Roberts) Date: Fri Jul 3 13:25:22 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Graphics Cards on GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <862861130907021802p6b1de76cv3f9dba76f2664912@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907021623o77b328edvd67fe784e4e30c7c@mail.gmail.com><2494ad260907021743y387918bfmbf3d9c4ee778e41f@mail.gmail.com> <862861130907021802p6b1de76cv3f9dba76f2664912@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E017716C1@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> Get a second hand 8800GT over a 9600, you should be able to find one for $150-200 and they work great (the overclocked ones are too hot for the factory sinks imo). Haven't had any issues with mine, if you use Twinview you may have to manually edit your xorg.conf if one of your monitors uses a resolution that isn't available from default, but even this is well documented and easy as pie. -----Original Message----- From: aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz [mailto:aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz] On Behalf Of Boxen Foxen Sent: Friday, 3 July 2009 1:03 p.m. To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Graphics Cards on GNU/Linux Hi Kennedy, Thanks for that, I will look at getting an Nvidia GeForce 9600 or 8800GT card, the #debian guys say it will work, just will be some config'ing. Cheers, BF On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Kennedy Skelton wrote: > 2009/7/3 Boxen Foxen : > > I am looking for a replacement PCI-E graphics card to run under Debian > Lenny > > but cannot quite make a choice. > > > > General specs I require: > > > > Under NZD $500 > > 512MB minimum > > DDR3 onboard memory > > PCI-E > > DVI x 2 > > HDMI optional > > OpenGL2.0 plus > > > > and most importantly will run under GNU/Linux without having to kludge > too > > much. > > I've had good experiences with nvidia drivers, can't speak for ATI > although a few years ago I was hearing horror stories. > However, the nvidia drivers are non-free software, so running them on > debian could - or perhaps I should say will? - become a headache, and > last time I tried to look up how to do it I found a few conflicting > instructions, most of which didn't do it for me. > > Barely fitting your minimum specs you could get a geforce 9600 for > about $150-$200 (brief look on pricespy) > So if you want to spend the full $500 then it looks like you can get > an upgrade on those specs. Last time I bought a graphics card was a > geforce 7600* a couple of years ago though, so I can't really > recommend the best or the latest for your money. > > * I've had no problem with it whatsoever under gentoo and then arch. > Drivers work a dream. _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug ##################################################################################### Important: This electronic message and attachments (if any) are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient do not copy, disclose or use the contents in any way. Please let us know by return e-mail immediately and then destroy this message. ##################################################################################### From boxen_foxen at maddaz.com Fri Jul 3 13:38:39 2009 From: boxen_foxen at maddaz.com (Boxen Foxen) Date: Fri Jul 3 13:39:26 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Graphics Cards on GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E017716C1@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> References: <862861130907021623o77b328edvd67fe784e4e30c7c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907021743y387918bfmbf3d9c4ee778e41f@mail.gmail.com> <862861130907021802p6b1de76cv3f9dba76f2664912@mail.gmail.com> <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E017716C1@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> Message-ID: <862861130907021838o5556512h6af52804dde277ae@mail.gmail.com> Hi David, Thanks for the heads up, will have a hunt on Trademe, anywhere else for second hand PC bits in NZ? Regards, BF On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:25 PM, David Roberts wrote: > Get a second hand 8800GT over a 9600, you should be able to find one for > $150-200 and they work great (the overclocked ones are too hot for the > factory sinks imo). Haven't had any issues with mine, if you use > Twinview you may have to manually edit your xorg.conf if one of your > monitors uses a resolution that isn't available from default, but even > this is well documented and easy as pie. From david.roberts at safecom.co.nz Fri Jul 3 14:16:06 2009 From: david.roberts at safecom.co.nz (David Roberts) Date: Fri Jul 3 14:16:21 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Graphics Cards on GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <862861130907021838o5556512h6af52804dde277ae@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907021623o77b328edvd67fe784e4e30c7c@mail.gmail.com><2494ad260907021743y387918bfmbf3d9c4ee778e41f@mail.gmail.com><862861130907021802p6b1de76cv3f9dba76f2664912@mail.gmail.com><4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E017716C1@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <862861130907021838o5556512h6af52804dde277ae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E017716CB@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> http://forums.overclockers.co.nz/ often have some good deals but it's more of a community forum and requires a post count for the buy/sell.. -----Original Message----- From: aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz [mailto:aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz] On Behalf Of Boxen Foxen Sent: Friday, 3 July 2009 1:39 p.m. To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Graphics Cards on GNU/Linux Hi David, Thanks for the heads up, will have a hunt on Trademe, anywhere else for second hand PC bits in NZ? Regards, BF On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:25 PM, David Roberts wrote: > Get a second hand 8800GT over a 9600, you should be able to find one for > $150-200 and they work great (the overclocked ones are too hot for the > factory sinks imo). Haven't had any issues with mine, if you use > Twinview you may have to manually edit your xorg.conf if one of your > monitors uses a resolution that isn't available from default, but even > this is well documented and easy as pie. _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug ##################################################################################### Important: This electronic message and attachments (if any) are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient do not copy, disclose or use the contents in any way. Please let us know by return e-mail immediately and then destroy this message. ##################################################################################### From boxen_foxen at maddaz.com Fri Jul 3 14:22:28 2009 From: boxen_foxen at maddaz.com (Boxen Foxen) Date: Fri Jul 3 14:22:41 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Graphics Cards on GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E017716CB@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> References: <862861130907021623o77b328edvd67fe784e4e30c7c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907021743y387918bfmbf3d9c4ee778e41f@mail.gmail.com> <862861130907021802p6b1de76cv3f9dba76f2664912@mail.gmail.com> <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E017716C1@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <862861130907021838o5556512h6af52804dde277ae@mail.gmail.com> <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E017716CB@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> Message-ID: <862861130907021922h240a2155l580322b67f58c895@mail.gmail.com> Thanks David, Seems to be a short supply of second-hand 8800-based GPUs, might just get a new one and deal with driver issue as it comes to hand. On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, David Roberts wrote: > http://forums.overclockers.co.nz/ often have some good deals but it's > more of a community forum and requires a post count for the buy/sell.. > > -----Original Message----- > From: aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz [mailto:aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz] > On Behalf Of Boxen Foxen > Sent: Friday, 3 July 2009 1:39 p.m. > To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list > Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Graphics Cards on GNU/Linux > > Hi David, > > Thanks for the heads up, will have a hunt on Trademe, anywhere else for > second hand PC bits in NZ? > > Regards, BF > From kiirani at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 14:31:26 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Fri Jul 3 14:31:36 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Graphics Cards on GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <862861130907021922h240a2155l580322b67f58c895@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907021623o77b328edvd67fe784e4e30c7c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907021743y387918bfmbf3d9c4ee778e41f@mail.gmail.com> <862861130907021802p6b1de76cv3f9dba76f2664912@mail.gmail.com> <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E017716C1@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <862861130907021838o5556512h6af52804dde277ae@mail.gmail.com> <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E017716CB@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <862861130907021922h240a2155l580322b67f58c895@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2494ad260907021931t4a7f1898u198013d617489bdb@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/3 Boxen Foxen : > Thanks David, > > Seems to be a short supply of second-hand 8800-based GPUs, might just get a > new one and deal with driver issue as it comes to hand. You shouldn't have driver issues with either the 8800 or the 9600, as far as I'm aware, the nvidia drivers for linux are developed by nvidia and support all of their recent cards. They also have a separate package for legacy cards so I think you've got about 10 years worth of full support for nvidia cards altogether. From swift at swift.4hv.org Fri Jul 3 14:52:26 2009 From: swift at swift.4hv.org (Tim) Date: Fri Jul 3 14:52:43 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Graphics Cards on GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <862861130907021922h240a2155l580322b67f58c895@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907021623o77b328edvd67fe784e4e30c7c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907021743y387918bfmbf3d9c4ee778e41f@mail.gmail.com> <862861130907021802p6b1de76cv3f9dba76f2664912@mail.gmail.com> <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E017716C1@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <862861130907021838o5556512h6af52804dde277ae@mail.gmail.com> <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E017716CB@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <862861130907021922h240a2155l580322b67f58c895@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1246589546.2984.3.camel@neon.swift> Hi, I have used my 8800GT with good success on linux, personally didn't come across any major driver issues. In general I have had good success with the Nvidia cards. Cheers, Tim > Thanks David, > > Seems to be a short supply of second-hand 8800-based GPUs, might just get a > new one and deal with driver issue as it comes to hand. > > On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 2:16 PM, David Roberts > wrote: > > > http://forums.overclockers.co.nz/ often have some good deals but it's > > more of a community forum and requires a post count for the buy/sell.. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz [mailto:aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz] > > On Behalf Of Boxen Foxen > > Sent: Friday, 3 July 2009 1:39 p.m. > > To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list > > Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Graphics Cards on GNU/Linux > > > > Hi David, > > > > Thanks for the heads up, will have a hunt on Trademe, anywhere else for > > second hand PC bits in NZ? > > > > Regards, BF > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug From boxen_foxen at maddaz.com Sat Jul 4 10:29:08 2009 From: boxen_foxen at maddaz.com (Boxen Foxen) Date: Sat Jul 4 10:29:22 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Graphics Cards on GNU/Linux In-Reply-To: <1246589546.2984.3.camel@neon.swift> References: <862861130907021623o77b328edvd67fe784e4e30c7c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907021743y387918bfmbf3d9c4ee778e41f@mail.gmail.com> <862861130907021802p6b1de76cv3f9dba76f2664912@mail.gmail.com> <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E017716C1@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <862861130907021838o5556512h6af52804dde277ae@mail.gmail.com> <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E017716CB@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <862861130907021922h240a2155l580322b67f58c895@mail.gmail.com> <1246589546.2984.3.camel@neon.swift> Message-ID: <862861130907031529j1d3d9dfbpcbd8d18dac137f45@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Tim wrote: > Hi, > > I have used my 8800GT with good success on linux, personally didn't come > across any major driver issues. In general I have had good success with > the Nvidia cards. > > Cheers, > > Tim > > Hi Tim, Thanks for that, still undecided but will get an Nvidia-based card regardless. BF From srdan.dukic at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 15:16:30 2009 From: srdan.dukic at gmail.com (Srdan Dukic) Date: Sat Jul 4 15:16:40 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] London Stock Exchange dumps Windows Message-ID: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> Hi guys, To anyone that's been asked why they shouldn't go with Microsoft's stack for mission critical software have a read: http://blogs.computerworld.com/london_stock_exchange_to_abandon_failed_windows_platform Also, slashdot article here: http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/07/03/1216250/London-Stock-Exchange-To-Abandon-Windows?art_pos=18 Cheers -- Sr?an ?uki? From gordonisnz at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 16:05:04 2009 From: gordonisnz at gmail.com (Gordon Stewart) Date: Sat Jul 4 16:05:37 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Installed Linux - now what ? Message-ID: <9a3273a00907032105u70092c3eja4de9f490560cfff@mail.gmail.com> Hi, My brother just helped me today set up a new PC, & we have now got linux on it (Ubuntu 8 something) I'm running WIN XP on this PC, & the next day or so, I'm going to get a router / hub etc & connect both PC's up.. In the meantime, Is there anything useful I can do on the Linux PC (no internet connection as yet)..... I know ubuntu has been upgraded, so once i get the net connected (via the win XP PC) - I'll upgrade it - i have been advised we cna do that over the internet -- G Freecycle Auckland :- http://www.freecycle.org/ From blakjak at blakjak.net Sat Jul 4 16:09:54 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Sat Jul 4 16:10:45 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Installed Linux - now what ? In-Reply-To: <9a3273a00907032105u70092c3eja4de9f490560cfff@mail.gmail.com> References: <9a3273a00907032105u70092c3eja4de9f490560cfff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Linux is a means to an end... what's the computer to be used for? Perhaps validate the applications you want/need and work out what additional things you want to be hunting for (apps, tools, drivers). You can engage in some training ('this is how to do simple things...") Basically Linux is the Operating System for a computer that presumably has some role (websurfing, document editing, whatever) - so focus on the practical outcomes and establish how far you can go on each of the key outputs, without connectivity. In this day and age so much seems to be tied to beingo on the internet, ... On Sat, 4 Jul 2009, Gordon Stewart wrote: > Hi, > > My brother just helped me today set up a new PC, & we have now got > linux on it (Ubuntu 8 something) > > I'm running WIN XP on this PC, & the next day or so, I'm going to get > a router / hub etc & connect both PC's up.. > > In the meantime, Is there anything useful I can do on the Linux PC (no > internet connection as yet)..... > > > I know ubuntu has been upgraded, so once i get the net connected (via > the win XP PC) - I'll upgrade it - i have been advised we cna do that > over the internet > > -- > G > Freecycle Auckland :- > http://www.freecycle.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From gordonisnz at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 16:21:14 2009 From: gordonisnz at gmail.com (Gordon Stewart) Date: Sat Jul 4 16:21:48 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Installed Linux - now what ? In-Reply-To: References: <9a3273a00907032105u70092c3eja4de9f490560cfff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9a3273a00907032121t7e5096bcn2e237bc394d85e88@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Mark Foster wrote: > Linux is a means to an end... what's the computer to be used for? ?Perhaps > validate the applications you want/need and work out what additional things > you want to be hunting for (apps, tools, drivers). in summary, I am doing a website projecy, & up till now I design the code / templates etc & put onto a test server - someone else 'packages' them & uploads to the live server. I guess theres not much I can do - until I get the net setup (or connection to WINXP Pc...) But once it is set up, I'll train myself (with their help, via email / chat) to package the files myself & upload to the main / live site > Basically Linux is the Operating System for a computer that presumably has > some role (websurfing, document editing, whatever) - so focus on the > practical outcomes and establish how far you can go on each of the key > outputs, without connectivity. I'll have a look around - Thanks -- G Freecycle Auckland :- http://www.freecycle.org/ From nevynh at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 21:00:55 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Sat Jul 4 21:01:03 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] London Stock Exchange dumps Windows In-Reply-To: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 3:16 PM, Srdan Dukic wrote: > Hi guys, > > To anyone that's been asked why they shouldn't go with Microsoft's > stack for mission critical software have a read: > > http://blogs.computerworld.com/london_stock_exchange_to_abandon_failed_windows_platform > > Also, slashdot article here: > > http://tech.slashdot.org/story/09/07/03/1216250/London-Stock-Exchange-To-Abandon-Windows?art_pos=18 > > Cheers > -- > Sr?an ?uki? The title is misleading. The article does not say at any point that they're planning on abandoning Windows in any capacity whatsoever. The issue was with the back end application which runs on a Windows stack. Despite them abandoning that application, it doesn't necessarily mean that Windows is suddenly disappearing. Regards, nevyn. From srdan.dukic at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 21:56:40 2009 From: srdan.dukic at gmail.com (Srdan Dukic) Date: Sat Jul 4 21:56:47 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] London Stock Exchange dumps Windows In-Reply-To: References: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c2ae0690907040256k564a8f70v95f3f1362a220ec8@mail.gmail.com> > The title is misleading. The article does not say at any point that > they're planning on abandoning Windows in any capacity whatsoever. The > issue was with the back end application which runs on a Windows stack. > Despite them abandoning that application, it doesn't necessarily mean > that Windows is suddenly disappearing. > > Regards, > nevyn. > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > That is true, there is no mention of what OS/Framework/DB the next system will run on. I think though that the story shows quite nicely the disparity between Microsoft's marketing department [1][2][3] and objective reality. But then again, we are talking about marketing after all... I assume that the LSE will adopt Linux to run the exchange because such systems are already being used by NYSE [4]. However, you're right, I could be wrong, it might be the case that they simply choose another Microsoft vendor. [1]http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/Case_Study_Detail.aspx?CaseStudyID=200042 [2]http://www.microsoft.com/uk/getthefacts/lse.mspx [3]http://www.onwindows.com/Articles/LSE-TradElect-system-goes-live/843/Default.aspx [4]http://searchdatacenter.techtarget.com/news/article/0,289142,sid80_gci1254860,00.html -- Sr?an ?uki? From blakjak at blakjak.net Sun Jul 5 08:54:08 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Sun Jul 5 08:54:19 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] London Stock Exchange dumps Windows In-Reply-To: <4c2ae0690907040256k564a8f70v95f3f1362a220ec8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907040256k564a8f70v95f3f1362a220ec8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Jul 2009, Srdan Dukic wrote: >> The title is misleading. The article does not say at any point that >> they're planning on abandoning Windows in any capacity whatsoever. The >> issue was with the back end application which runs on a Windows stack. >> Despite them abandoning that application, it doesn't necessarily mean >> that Windows is suddenly disappearing. >> >> Regards, >> nevyn. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> AuckLUG mailing list >> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> > > That is true, there is no mention of what OS/Framework/DB the next > system will run on. I think though that the story shows quite nicely > the disparity between Microsoft's marketing department [1][2][3] and > objective reality. But then again, we are talking about marketing > after all... > > I assume that the LSE will adopt Linux to run the exchange because > such systems are already being used by NYSE [4]. However, you're > right, I could be wrong, it might be the case that they simply choose > another Microsoft vendor. > Indeed. NASDAQ run windows. I personally point the finger in the direction of the integrator/consultant who didn't spec the system well enough.... From srdan.dukic at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 10:40:19 2009 From: srdan.dukic at gmail.com (Srdan Dukic) Date: Sun Jul 5 10:40:26 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] London Stock Exchange dumps Windows In-Reply-To: References: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907040256k564a8f70v95f3f1362a220ec8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c2ae0690907041540n37177942hd22b8492588f2a95@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/5 Mark Foster : > > > On Sat, 4 Jul 2009, Srdan Dukic wrote: > >>> The title is misleading. The article does not say at any point that >>> they're planning on abandoning Windows in any capacity whatsoever. The >>> issue was with the back end application which runs on a Windows stack. >>> Despite them abandoning that application, it doesn't necessarily mean >>> that Windows is suddenly disappearing. >>> >>> Regards, >>> nevyn. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> AuckLUG mailing list >>> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >>> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >>> >> >> That is true, there is no mention of what OS/Framework/DB the next >> system will run on. I think though that the story shows quite nicely >> the disparity between Microsoft's marketing department [1][2][3] and >> objective reality. But then again, we are talking about marketing >> after all... >> >> I assume that the LSE will adopt Linux to run the exchange because >> such systems are already being used by NYSE [4]. However, you're >> right, I could be wrong, it might be the case that they simply choose >> another Microsoft vendor. >> > > Indeed. NASDAQ run windows. > > I personally point the finger in the direction of the integrator/consultant > who didn't spec the system well enough.... > > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > The NASDAQ trading system does not run on Windows. It runs Windows and the .NET/SQL Server stack for it's Market Data Dissemination System (MDDS), which is a system that allows people to do non-real-time-critical look ups of past trades (essentially an elaborate log file). At the time of the 'NASDAQ switches to Windows' articles the trading system used by NASDAQ ran HP's NonStop hardware, with a custom POSIX compatible OS, (NonStop OS) and NonStop SQL. This is the mission-critical hardware/software that runs NASDAQ [4]. There was also a plan to move to a more open source system [5]. This is exactly the kind of marketing spin I'm talking about. When you read the articles like these [1][2][3], you would actually believe that the entire NASDAQ system runs on Windows/.NET/SQL server, when this is just not the case. I don't mean to be argumentative, but one of the main things I find is that Linux/OSS suffers from a severe lack of marketing. Despite the fact that Linux runs the NYSE, I still get questions about the 'Enterprise Readiness' of Linux. Nobody ever questions the 'Enterprise Readiness' of Windows/.NET/SQL Server, when cases such as the London Stock Exchange show that, when it comes to real-time-critical systems there are still a lot of questions to be answered. [1]http://www.windowsfs.com/enews/nasdaq-migrates-to-sql-server-2005 [2]http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/Case_Study_Detail.aspx?CaseStudyID=49271 [3]http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-us&vid=12818c65-4596-448b-acab-0233324db264 [4]http://news.cnet.com/Nasdaq-upgrades-HP-based-trading-system/2110-1010_3-5628950.html [5]http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=Management&articleId=101738&taxonomyId=14&pageNumber=1 Cheers -- Sr?an ?uki? From blakjak at blakjak.net Sun Jul 5 10:54:22 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Sun Jul 5 10:54:57 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] London Stock Exchange dumps Windows In-Reply-To: <4c2ae0690907041540n37177942hd22b8492588f2a95@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907040256k564a8f70v95f3f1362a220ec8@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907041540n37177942hd22b8492588f2a95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Jul 2009, Srdan Dukic wrote: >> >> Indeed. NASDAQ run windows. > The NASDAQ trading system does not run on Windows. It runs Windows and > the .NET/SQL Server stack for it's Market Data Dissemination System > (MDDS), which is a system that allows people to do > non-real-time-critical look ups of past trades (essentially an > elaborate log file). Sure, my comment was inspecific. About as inspecific as the people try to switch the word 'Windows' for 'Linux' and 'NASDAQ' for 'many other corporations'. The truth is that many corporations run hybrid or mixed systems, leveraging the capabilities of the platforms that're best for a given purpose (or working within the limits of the software/hardware available). > I don't mean to be argumentative, but one of the main things I find is > that Linux/OSS suffers from a severe lack of marketing. Despite the > fact that Linux runs the NYSE, I still get questions about the > 'Enterprise Readiness' of Linux. Nobody ever questions the 'Enterprise > Readiness' of Windows/.NET/SQL Server, when cases such as the London > Stock Exchange show that, when it comes to real-time-critical systems > there are still a lot of questions to be answered. > Agree. I actually feel that's one of the majors for the adoption of Linux in a nutshell; people will use what theyre familiar with, and Microsoft systems are that - for the reason that Microsofts systems have a centralised marketing engine behind them. Linux by its very nature, doesn't have this. I guess it's part of the reason groups like this very LUG exist. I give Canonical, etc, big ups, for actually attempting to narrow the gap in that respect. The same applies for companies such as Catalyst who openly advocate and tender/sell based on F/OSS solutions... exposure is the key. Mark. From srdan.dukic at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 14:07:56 2009 From: srdan.dukic at gmail.com (Srdan Dukic) Date: Sun Jul 5 14:08:04 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] London Stock Exchange dumps Windows In-Reply-To: References: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907040256k564a8f70v95f3f1362a220ec8@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907041540n37177942hd22b8492588f2a95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c2ae0690907041907r147aa636ke32c088ed56a8f32@mail.gmail.com> > Linux by its very nature, doesn't have this. ?I guess it's part of the > reason groups like this very LUG exist. >>> Indeed. NASDAQ run windows. >From a marketing perspective, making overly general comments defending your competitor after a project which they've touted as a major success fails, is a no-no :) Also, I don't buy the whole 'Blame the Application, not the Windows stack' argument. Here's an excerpt from an old QnA session[1]: "That was where Microsoft came in. We looked at their whole suite of technology from their development environment through to their databases and operating systems, and we decided that their technology was best aligned to achieving this range of design principles. We also found that they were willing to operate as true partners with us and to engage throughout the whole four-year programme rather than on particular components within it where there was potential revenue for them through licence sales. So we felt that not only did their technology stack up against the design principles, but they were genuinely able to act as a partner. They recognised at the most senior levels what we were trying to achieve here and that was important to us." It sounds like Microsoft had a big hand in this project and the fact that they couldn't produce the goods shows a failure of the whole Windows/.NET/SQL Server stack, at least when it comes to mission-critical stock exchange systems. [1]http://www.information-age.com/channels/business-applications/features/272071/qanda-london-stock-exchange.thtml -- Sr?an ?uki? From blakjak at blakjak.net Sun Jul 5 14:30:08 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Sun Jul 5 14:30:19 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] London Stock Exchange dumps Windows In-Reply-To: <4c2ae0690907041907r147aa636ke32c088ed56a8f32@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907040256k564a8f70v95f3f1362a220ec8@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907041540n37177942hd22b8492588f2a95@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907041907r147aa636ke32c088ed56a8f32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 5 Jul 2009, Srdan Dukic wrote: >> Linux by its very nature, doesn't have this. ?I guess it's part of the >> reason groups like this very LUG exist. > >>>> Indeed. NASDAQ run windows. > >> From a marketing perspective, making overly general comments defending > your competitor after a project which they've touted as a major > success fails, is a no-no :) I'm not defending anything. I'm just pointing out there's plenty of ways to achieve an outcome. I'm a fan of Linux for various ethical and opportunistical reasons (freedom of choice and the whole ethic of a community supported environment that doesn't trap you into a monopolistic circumstance) but this isn't to say that Windows based solutions don't work. They're not my choice, however, and i'm quite happy to sell the reasons why. > > > Also, I don't buy the whole 'Blame the Application, not the Windows > stack' argument. Here's an excerpt from an old QnA session[1]: > > "That was where Microsoft came in. We looked at their whole suite of > technology from their development environment through to their > databases and operating systems, and we decided that their technology > was best aligned to achieving this range of design principles. We also > found that they were willing to operate as true partners with us and > to engage throughout the whole four-year programme rather than on > particular components within it where there was potential revenue for > them through licence sales. So we felt that not only did their > technology stack up against the design principles, but they were > genuinely able to act as a partner. They recognised at the most senior > levels what we were trying to achieve here and that was important to > us." > > It sounds like Microsoft had a big hand in this project and the fact > that they couldn't produce the goods shows a failure of the whole > Windows/.NET/SQL Server stack, at least when it comes to > mission-critical stock exchange systems. > The paragraph you quoted contains far too much buzzword-speak for my liking, and lacks in serious detail. Reading between the lines, the customer liked the solution as being something which would suit them (likely again in terms of familiarity, and claims made by the developer/integrator in a sales pitch) and then the solution didnt deliver... either the claims made by the developer/integrator were flawed, or the development/integration was poorly implemented. eg it's either poor software, or poor implementation, or a combination of both. I'm not qualified to say whether a microsoft-based solution would actually meet the service level requirements or not, and I'm not interested in FUDding the other way either - so I won't sell linux as a 'better than microsoft' solution unless I can back it up with real, factual observations. (I'm putting linux up, and not windows down - at least without solid facts to back me up either way.) Mark. From apelly at monkeymasters.co.nz Sun Jul 5 15:05:31 2009 From: apelly at monkeymasters.co.nz (Aaron Pelly) Date: Sun Jul 5 15:05:43 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] London Stock Exchange dumps Windows In-Reply-To: References: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907040256k564a8f70v95f3f1362a220ec8@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907041540n37177942hd22b8492588f2a95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <025701c9fd1d$7540cdf0$5fc269d0$@co.nz> > corporations'. The truth is that many corporations run hybrid or mixed > systems, leveraging the capabilities of the platforms that're best for a > given purpose Mark, your sanity is rather sucking the fun out of this. OTOH the article _was_ peculiarly aggressive and confrontational. From srdan.dukic at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 16:58:21 2009 From: srdan.dukic at gmail.com (Srdan Dukic) Date: Sun Jul 5 16:59:04 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] London Stock Exchange dumps Windows In-Reply-To: References: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907040256k564a8f70v95f3f1362a220ec8@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907041540n37177942hd22b8492588f2a95@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907041907r147aa636ke32c088ed56a8f32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c2ae0690907042158q58f0ed5cx4c5d0d19c4da9113@mail.gmail.com> > I'm not defending anything. I'm just pointing out there's plenty of ways to > achieve an outcome. You were implying that the fault was not with Windows but with the application software by pointing out a system which does run successfully on Windows. However, the system you pointed out fulfills a different purpose and does not have the critical requirement that it responds in real time. In fact I would challenge you to find one system which handles the actual trades of a financial system that doesn't use some kind of POSIX system. > I'm a fan of Linux for various ethical and opportunistical reasons (freedom of choice and the whole ethic of a community supported > environment that doesn't trap you into a monopolistic circumstance) but this isn't to say that Windows based solutions don't work. > They're not my choice, however, and i'm quite happy to sell the reasons why. Im a fan of Linux because it doesn't cause my Stock Exchange to unexplainably crash for a whole day at a time[1], and I'm quite happy to sell the reasons why :) > > The paragraph you quoted contains far too much buzzword-speak for my liking, > and lacks in serious detail. ?Reading between the lines, the customer liked > the solution as being something which would suit them (likely again in terms > of familiarity, and claims made by the developer/integrator in a sales > pitch) and then the solution didnt deliver... either the claims made by the > developer/integrator were flawed, or the development/integration was poorly > implemented. > > eg it's either poor software, or poor implementation, or a combination of > both. ?I'm not qualified to say whether a microsoft-based solution would > actually meet the service level requirements or not, and I'm not interested > in FUDding the other way either - so I won't sell linux as a 'better than > microsoft' solution unless I can back it up with real, factual observations. > ?(I'm putting linux up, and not windows down - at least without solid facts > to back me up either way.) > The key part of the paragraph was: "We also found that they were willing to operate as true partners with us and to engage throughout the whole four-year programme rather than on particular components within it where there was potential revenue for them through licence sales. So we felt that not only did their technology stack up against the design principles, but they were genuinely able to act as a partner. They recognised at the most senior levels what we were trying to achieve here and that was important to us." Microsoft recommended the vendor and worked with the project for four years. In fact they felt so confident about this system that they put it up on their 'Get the Facts' campaign, wrote Case Studies and put it as a success story on the 'On Windows' web site. On *ALL* of these sites they claimed that the reason the project was successful was due to their software stack (Windows/.NET/SQL Server) i.e. They tied the success/failure of this project to their software stack. So, in order to make this kind of commitment, they would've made sure that they did everything in their power, to ensure that the project was a success and they *STILL* failed. While you could still claim that it was the vendor, that they could have used the newer version of the DB/Framework, project was underfunded etc.... none of this matters to the client. The bottom line is that they had full control over the project and they failed. I just don't understand why we can't give credit where credit is due. I'd also like to point out that if the tables were turned and that if it had been RedHat's NYSE offering that had been such a failure we would have Microsoft's Marketing department shouting it from the rooftops and I really doubt that they would stop to point out that there is more than one way to achieve an outcome. [1]http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSL01084620080908 Cheers -- Sr?an ?uki? From candle.man.nz at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 17:04:40 2009 From: candle.man.nz at gmail.com (Kevin Adams) Date: Sun Jul 5 17:06:47 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] London Stock Exchange dumps Windows In-Reply-To: <4c2ae0690907042158q58f0ed5cx4c5d0d19c4da9113@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907040256k564a8f70v95f3f1362a220ec8@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907041540n37177942hd22b8492588f2a95@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907041907r147aa636ke32c088ed56a8f32@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907042158q58f0ed5cx4c5d0d19c4da9113@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5b6001920907042204x1695ce0dn91cd588861b902fa@mail.gmail.com> I agree the fun is being sucked out of this thread, I heard they decided the problem was computer related and they were going back to using the abacus. Kevin 2009/7/5 Srdan Dukic > > I'm not defending anything. I'm just pointing out there's plenty of ways > to > > achieve an outcome. > > You were implying that the fault was not with Windows but with the > application software by pointing out a system which does run > successfully on Windows. However, the system you pointed out fulfills > a different purpose and does not have the critical requirement that it > responds in real time. In fact I would challenge you to find one > system which handles the actual trades of a financial system that > doesn't use some kind of POSIX system. > > > I'm a fan of Linux for various ethical and opportunistical reasons > (freedom of choice and the whole ethic of a community supported > > environment that doesn't trap you into a monopolistic circumstance) but this > isn't to say that Windows based solutions don't work. > > They're not my choice, however, and i'm quite happy to sell the reasons > why. > > Im a fan of Linux because it doesn't cause my Stock Exchange to > unexplainably crash for a whole day at a time[1], and I'm quite happy > to sell the reasons why :) > > > > > The paragraph you quoted contains far too much buzzword-speak for my > liking, > > and lacks in serious detail. Reading between the lines, the customer > liked > > the solution as being something which would suit them (likely again in > terms > > of familiarity, and claims made by the developer/integrator in a sales > > pitch) and then the solution didnt deliver... either the claims made by > the > > developer/integrator were flawed, or the development/integration was > poorly > > implemented. > > > > eg it's either poor software, or poor implementation, or a combination of > > both. I'm not qualified to say whether a microsoft-based solution would > > actually meet the service level requirements or not, and I'm not > interested > > in FUDding the other way either - so I won't sell linux as a 'better than > > microsoft' solution unless I can back it up with real, factual > observations. > > (I'm putting linux up, and not windows down - at least without solid > facts > > to back me up either way.) > > > > The key part of the paragraph was: > > "We also found that they were willing to operate as true partners with > us and to engage throughout the whole four-year programme rather than > on particular components within it where there was potential revenue > for them through licence sales. So we felt that not only did their > technology stack up against the design principles, but they were > genuinely able to act as a partner. They recognised at the most senior > levels what we were trying to achieve here and that was important to > us." > > Microsoft recommended the vendor and worked with the project for four > years. In fact they felt so confident about this system that they put > it up on their 'Get the Facts' campaign, wrote Case Studies and put it > as a success story on the 'On Windows' web site. On *ALL* of these > sites they claimed that the reason the project was successful was due > to their software stack (Windows/.NET/SQL Server) i.e. They tied the > success/failure of this project to their software stack. So, in order > to make this kind of commitment, they would've made sure that they did > everything in their power, to ensure that the project was a success > and they *STILL* failed. > > While you could still claim that it was the vendor, that they could > have used the newer version of the DB/Framework, project was > underfunded etc.... none of this matters to the client. The bottom > line is that they had full control over the project and they failed. I > just don't understand why we can't give credit where credit is due. > > I'd also like to point out that if the tables were turned and that if > it had been RedHat's NYSE offering that had been such a failure we > would have Microsoft's Marketing department shouting it from the > rooftops and I really doubt that they would stop to point out that > there is more than one way to achieve an outcome. > > > [1]http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSL01084620080908 > > Cheers > -- > Sr?an ?uki? > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From kiirani at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 18:36:33 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Sun Jul 5 18:36:41 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Installed Linux - now what ? In-Reply-To: <9a3273a00907032121t7e5096bcn2e237bc394d85e88@mail.gmail.com> References: <9a3273a00907032105u70092c3eja4de9f490560cfff@mail.gmail.com> <9a3273a00907032121t7e5096bcn2e237bc394d85e88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2494ad260907042336k17dbad39uc05e74f9fe81dff4@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/4 Gordon Stewart : > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Mark Foster wrote: >> Linux is a means to an end... what's the computer to be used for? ?Perhaps >> validate the applications you want/need and work out what additional things >> you want to be hunting for (apps, tools, drivers). > > in summary, ?I am doing a website projecy, & up till now I design the > code / templates etc & put onto a test server - someone else > 'packages' them & uploads to the live server. > > I guess theres not much I can do - until I get the net setup (or > connection to WINXP Pc...) > > But once it is set up, I'll train myself (with their help, via email / > chat) ?to package the files myself & upload to the main / live site In that case, while you're waiting for the net connection you can play around with some of the text editors / development environments that came preinstalled (have a search through your 'start' menu, it probably came with a couple) and choose one you enjoy using :) You can poke around in their help files or configuration settings and see if they support FTP, or whatever you'll be using to connect to the server, and there's no reason you shouldn't be able to keep developing the html offline on the ubuntu system just to get used to how things work :) From boxen_foxen at maddaz.com Mon Jul 6 07:23:18 2009 From: boxen_foxen at maddaz.com (Boxen Foxen) Date: Mon Jul 6 07:23:28 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions Message-ID: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 6:36 PM, Kennedy Skelton wrote: > 2009/7/4 Gordon Stewart : > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Mark Foster wrote: > >> Linux is a means to an end... what's the computer to be used for? > Perhaps > >> validate the applications you want/need and work out what additional > things > >> you want to be hunting for (apps, tools, drivers). > > > > in summary, I am doing a website projecy, & up till now I design the > > code / templates etc & put onto a test server - someone else > > 'packages' them & uploads to the live server. > > > > I guess theres not much I can do - until I get the net setup (or > > connection to WINXP Pc...) > > > > But once it is set up, I'll train myself (with their help, via email / > > chat) to package the files myself & upload to the main / live site > > > In that case, while you're waiting for the net connection you can play > around with some of the text editors / development environments that > came preinstalled (have a search through your 'start' menu, it > probably came with a couple) and choose one you enjoy using :) > You can poke around in their help files or configuration settings and > see if they support FTP, or whatever you'll be using to connect to the > server, and there's no reason you shouldn't be able to keep developing > the html offline on the ubuntu system just to get used to how things > work :) As someone who went through the "installed Linux, now what point?" in 2000, I think that is a very good question. Mark asks "what are you going to use it for?" Which is a more defining question ... yet if I was to buy my first PC and run MS X, no-one would ask me what I was going to use it for, would they? They would just accept that I was going to use it in some fashion as far as it's basic functionality would allow. Maybe Gordon is asking now what, as there seems to be too much inherent functionality in a standard GNU/Linux install, after all you would be hard pressed to not say that Gnome and KDE are not now officially bloatware. So, what are people using in this LUG? What is a "good distro" for a user and can we do better for a newb that "just install linux"? Sort of combining this post with the previous one concerning London Stock Exchage and Marketing. Could we mix a simple or less complex Ubuntu/Debian for newbs, then they learn and extend their system as they go? Cheers, BF -- Boxen Foxen Auckland New Zealand ------------------------------- Browser - http://www.mozilla.com Encryption - http://www.gnupg.org Freedom - http://creativefreedom.org.nz Operating System - http://www.debian.org From kiirani at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 09:59:39 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Mon Jul 6 09:59:48 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/6 Boxen Foxen : > As someone who went through the "installed Linux, now what point?" in 2000, > I think that is a very good question. Mark asks "what are you going to use > it for?" Which is a more defining question ... yet if I was to buy my first > PC and run MS X, no-one would ask me what I was going to use it for, would > they? They would just accept that I was going to use it in some fashion as > far as it's basic functionality would allow. > > Maybe Gordon is asking now what, as there seems to be too much inherent > functionality in a standard GNU/Linux install, after all you would be hard > pressed to not say that Gnome and KDE are not now officially bloatware. No more bloatware than windows or mac operating systems, so far as basic user applications go. Only there's so much more you can do with *nix than use the basic user applications... Take how easy (and common) it is to set up a web server. > So, what are people using in this LUG? What is a "good distro" for a user > and can we do better for a newb that "just install linux"? To answer your first question, I'm using Arch Linux. To answer your second question, Arch Linux. http://www.archlinux.org/ > Sort of combining this post with the previous one concerning London Stock > Exchage and Marketing. > > Could we mix a simple or less complex Ubuntu/Debian for newbs, then they > learn and extend their system as they go? Hmm, I presume by 'simple' you mean 'less foolproof than ubuntu'? Because if there's one thing ubuntu does well, it's discourage people from extending their system :p I don't see why it couldn't be done, but I'd question whether debian is the right system to base it on. I have a few issues with the apt package management system, and I don't like the way debian's official repos are handled... Again, I'm going to put in a word for Arch here. It starts stripped down but it's designed to be very simple - from the point of view of a commandline junkie, anyway - to configure and extend, so it wouldn't be hard to build up a big, easy gui around it without hiding the beauty and simplicity of the underlying system... From freakalad at yahoo.co.uk Mon Jul 6 10:06:57 2009 From: freakalad at yahoo.co.uk (Jaco van der Merwe) Date: Mon Jul 6 10:07:10 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] REMINDER: AuckLUG meeting @ RvB: VM's Message-ID: <344870.90141.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> That time of month again, boys & girls! Same place (back-room this time), same time. Spent my sick-day working on prez & got a bit carried away.... hope you like what I've done. I'm willing to kick off, as I had to do a bit of a general overview of VM's (a bit of a 101-intro), to put KVM in perspective. Hope nobody minds See you guys there - J From blakjak at blakjak.net Mon Jul 6 10:12:06 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Mon Jul 6 10:12:16 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7179.119.15.0.26.1246831926.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> >> >> Could we mix a simple or less complex Ubuntu/Debian for newbs, then they >> learn and extend their system as they go? > > Hmm, I presume by 'simple' you mean 'less foolproof than ubuntu'? > Because if there's one thing ubuntu does well, it's discourage people > from extending their system :p what.. you mean it works and people don't have to fiddle with it? And you see this as a bad thing? For people who aren't actually working with / interested in / hobbiests involved with PC's, the computer is a means to an end. A tool. If Ubuntu works and doesn't need to be 'extended' to meet those ends, surely that's a big tick in the boxes an end-consumer is looking for? People who want to 'tinker' are another group entirely. Mark. From candle.man.nz at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 10:12:25 2009 From: candle.man.nz at gmail.com (Kevin Adams) Date: Mon Jul 6 10:12:32 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5b6001920907051512y27305c3cx2dc58eaa7a5aef55@mail.gmail.com> Apt is getting more general, it is now in PCLinuxOS 2009 and thats rpm not debian. 2009/7/6 Kennedy Skelton > 2009/7/6 Boxen Foxen : > > As someone who went through the "installed Linux, now what point?" in > 2000, > > I think that is a very good question. Mark asks "what are you going to > use > > it for?" Which is a more defining question ... yet if I was to buy my > first > > PC and run MS X, no-one would ask me what I was going to use it for, > would > > they? They would just accept that I was going to use it in some fashion > as > > far as it's basic functionality would allow. > > > > Maybe Gordon is asking now what, as there seems to be too much inherent > > functionality in a standard GNU/Linux install, after all you would be > hard > > pressed to not say that Gnome and KDE are not now officially bloatware. > > No more bloatware than windows or mac operating systems, so far as > basic user applications go. Only there's so much more you can do with > *nix than use the basic user applications... Take how easy (and > common) it is to set up a web server. > > > > So, what are people using in this LUG? What is a "good distro" for a user > > and can we do better for a newb that "just install linux"? > > To answer your first question, I'm using Arch Linux. > To answer your second question, Arch Linux. > http://www.archlinux.org/ > > > > Sort of combining this post with the previous one concerning London Stock > > Exchage and Marketing. > > > > Could we mix a simple or less complex Ubuntu/Debian for newbs, then they > > learn and extend their system as they go? > > Hmm, I presume by 'simple' you mean 'less foolproof than ubuntu'? > Because if there's one thing ubuntu does well, it's discourage people > from extending their system :p > I don't see why it couldn't be done, but I'd question whether debian > is the right system to base it on. I have a few issues with the apt > package management system, and I don't like the way debian's official > repos are handled... > Again, I'm going to put in a word for Arch here. It starts stripped > down but it's designed to be very simple - from the point of view of a > commandline junkie, anyway - to configure and extend, so it wouldn't > be hard to build up a big, easy gui around it without hiding the > beauty and simplicity of the underlying system... > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From nevynh at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 10:14:24 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Mon Jul 6 10:14:36 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: <5b6001920907051512y27305c3cx2dc58eaa7a5aef55@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> <5b6001920907051512y27305c3cx2dc58eaa7a5aef55@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Kevin Adams wrote: > Apt is getting more general, it is now in PCLinuxOS 2009 and thats rpm not > debian. Apt for rpm based systems has been around for ages. I can't remember the year, but when I was using Redhat 7.3, it was fairly common (given that yum didn't seem to be around yet or at least, I hadn't heard of it back them). From leon at lost.co.nz Mon Jul 6 10:15:34 2009 From: leon at lost.co.nz (Leon Matthews) Date: Mon Jul 6 10:15:45 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] REMINDER: AuckLUG meeting @ RvB: VM's In-Reply-To: <344870.90141.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <344870.90141.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A512606.90502@lost.co.nz> Jaco van der Merwe wrote: > Same place (back-room this time), same time. I'm looking forward to the presentations, but I haven't been to a meeting for a while -- could you please re-post the location, time, and parking details? Cheers, Leon -- Leon Matthews BSc Technical Director, Messiah Ltd. messiah.co.nz | 0800 MESSIAH lost.co.nz | Personal From nevynh at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 10:15:52 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Mon Jul 6 10:16:05 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Kennedy Skelton wrote: > 2009/7/6 Boxen Foxen : >> >> Maybe Gordon is asking now what, as there seems to be too much inherent >> functionality in a standard GNU/Linux install, after all you would be hard >> pressed to not say that Gnome and KDE are not now officially bloatware. > > No more bloatware than windows or mac operating systems, so far as > basic user applications go. Only there's so much more you can do with > *nix than use the basic user applications... Take how easy (and > common) it is to set up a web server. This is something that bothers me. From a command line I expect small tools with very specific functionality and if I want something complex I can pipe them together. In Gnome or KDE it's seemingly okay for things to be mixed together (the example with the desktop handling and file manager is an obvious one) into tools with sort of similar functionality. From blakjak at blakjak.net Mon Jul 6 10:27:04 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Mon Jul 6 10:27:11 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Administrivia: AuckLUG Stuff. Message-ID: <8464.119.15.0.26.1246832824.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> Seems like a good time to drop a reminder: - Auckland Linux Users Group (AuckLUG) welcomes contributions from all interested in Linux and the wider Open Source world. - Our mandate is articulated as: * Raise the profile of Linux in Auckland. * Be the recognised champions of Linux in Auckland * Help make Linux and Linux related software available to Aucklanders. * Provide, in cooperation with NZLUG and other NZ regional LUGs, a resource for Linux users in Auckland and/or links to other resources. * To provide a user group with active, friendly members able to welcome and provide assistance to people entering the Linux world, as well as thos who've been playing with it for a while. * To hold regular meetings and work to provide linux related events in the Auckland area. The LUG has a website (http://auckland.linux.net.nz/ hosted by Mark Foster) and makes use of facilities provided by Linux.net.nz (www.linux.net.nz) - including their CMS for promulgating news and suchlike, and of course, the list is hosted there. We also encourage the use of http://wiki.linux.net.nz as a shared resource for Linux fans nationwide (+more), with thanks to Waikato LUG. The mailing list has an Acceptable Use Policy found at http://auckland.linux.net.nz/aup.html which all contributors should read. When posting to the list please note the following limitations: - The list must be a TO: or CC: recipient only. - Cross-posting (posting to more than one place simultaneously) is discouraged. - Posts cannot be larger than 40KB in total. This includes both body text, and attachments. Whilst we may revise this upward if need is identified, it's unlikely to move very far. - Resultantly, attachments are discouraged. Put it online and post a URL. - Excessive quoting is also discouraged, also for netiquette reasons. Review the AUP for advice. - Posts must be made from email addresses which are subscribed to the list. The listserv traps posts which come from unrecognised sources and these are usually dropped silently by the list admins when the spam queue is purged. Occaisionally we get to manually approve, or reject, posts. Contributors are discouraged from putting us in the position to have to intervene manually. - Posts which are trapped, result in a notice to the sender. If you accidentally post a message which is held, you have the ability yourself to cancel the contribution and re-post it in such a way that it doesn't get held. Take advantage of this functionality and it helps the list admins a great deal. - Generic info about the list - including subscribing/unsubscribing - can be found at http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug - also this contains the web archive of every posting made to the list. - Administrative queries can be sent to the -owner address featured at the bottom of that page. This is delivered to Nic Bellamy (linux.net.nz administrator), Mark Foster and Scott Newton. - Auckland LUG events are coordinated by Martin Kealey and Nevyn, who are both regular contributors here. Feel free to approach them with ideas for topics, venues or other events. - A related Facebook Group can be found here: http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=35702173285&ref=ts Cheers. Mark Foster From blakjak at blakjak.net Mon Jul 6 10:28:04 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Mon Jul 6 10:28:20 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] REMINDER: AuckLUG meeting @ RvB: VM's In-Reply-To: <4A512606.90502@lost.co.nz> References: <344870.90141.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A512606.90502@lost.co.nz> Message-ID: <8573.119.15.0.26.1246832884.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> On Mon, July 6, 2009 10:15 am, Leon Matthews wrote: > Jaco van der Merwe wrote: >> Same place (back-room this time), same time. > > I'm looking forward to the presentations, but I haven't been to a > meeting for a while -- could you please re-post the location, time, and > parking details? > > Cheers, Auckland LUG meeting details can be found here: http://www.linux.net.nz/taxonomy/page/or/2 From kiirani at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 10:41:24 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Mon Jul 6 10:41:38 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: <7179.119.15.0.26.1246831926.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> <7179.119.15.0.26.1246831926.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> Message-ID: <2494ad260907051541g3193a1fbl9ce0330155b4b55f@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/6 Mark Foster : >>> >>> Could we mix a simple or less complex Ubuntu/Debian for newbs, then they >>> learn and extend their system as they go? >> >> Hmm, I presume by 'simple' you mean 'less foolproof than ubuntu'? >> Because if there's one thing ubuntu does well, it's discourage people >> from extending their system :p > > what.. you mean it works and people don't have to fiddle with it? And you > see this as a bad thing? > > For people who aren't actually working with / interested in / hobbiests > involved with PC's, the computer is a means to an end. ?A tool. ?If Ubuntu > works and doesn't need to be 'extended' to meet those ends, surely that's > a big tick in the boxes an end-consumer is looking for? > > People who want to 'tinker' are another group entirely. I don't believe that a lecture on the difference between a power user and a regular user is necessary when the original question presented was "Could we mix a simple or less complex Ubuntu/Debian for newbs, then they learn and extend their system as they go?" Learning to extend your system requires a system which does not discourage extending. From where I'm standing, ubuntu is too built up, nobody wants to learn to configure it because it DOES just work... Oh wait, except when it doesn't. Then nobody knows how to fix it. If you want a system that people actually learn to fiddle with, which was what was asked, you need something with a good level of abstraction, but less than ubuntu provides. Something where you can take the GUI off and see a system that's had all of the bloat stripped away and is ready to configure. From nevynh at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 10:51:31 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Mon Jul 6 10:51:40 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] London Stock Exchange dumps Windows In-Reply-To: <025701c9fd1d$7540cdf0$5fc269d0$@co.nz> References: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907040256k564a8f70v95f3f1362a220ec8@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907041540n37177942hd22b8492588f2a95@mail.gmail.com> <025701c9fd1d$7540cdf0$5fc269d0$@co.nz> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Aaron Pelly wrote: >> corporations'. ?The truth is that many corporations run hybrid or mixed >> systems, leveraging the capabilities of the platforms that're best for a >> given purpose > > Mark, your sanity is rather sucking the fun out of this. OTOH the article _was_ > peculiarly aggressive and confrontational. He's right though. The article left vagueness left right and center and was essentially a fud piece. There is absolutely nothing of substance in there. It's taken a few events - crash, CEO leaving, new CEO dumping software. Everything else is opinion or fud. There's nothing concrete in there to say that it was the MS stack or the infrastructure. Only that they're dumping the software on top. No word on what's happening with the infrastructure so conjecture towards Linux seems just plain silly. Let's get it clear and not fall into the way of the FUD. Regards, Nevyn. From simon at simongreen.name Mon Jul 6 10:54:25 2009 From: simon at simongreen.name (Simon Green) Date: Mon Jul 6 10:54:52 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: <2494ad260907051541g3193a1fbl9ce0330155b4b55f@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> <7179.119.15.0.26.1246831926.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> <2494ad260907051541g3193a1fbl9ce0330155b4b55f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4d1940c20907051554g7fc8b0c0k483645ef36d09d42@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/6 Kennedy Skelton > 2009/7/6 Mark Foster : > >>> > >>> Could we mix a simple or less complex Ubuntu/Debian for newbs, then > they > >>> learn and extend their system as they go? > >> > >> Hmm, I presume by 'simple' you mean 'less foolproof than ubuntu'? > >> Because if there's one thing ubuntu does well, it's discourage people > >> from extending their system :p > > > > what.. you mean it works and people don't have to fiddle with it? And you > > see this as a bad thing? > > > > For people who aren't actually working with / interested in / hobbiests > > involved with PC's, the computer is a means to an end. A tool. If > Ubuntu > > works and doesn't need to be 'extended' to meet those ends, surely that's > > a big tick in the boxes an end-consumer is looking for? > > > > People who want to 'tinker' are another group entirely. > > I don't believe that a lecture on the difference between a power user > and a regular user is necessary when the original question presented > was > "Could we mix a simple or less complex Ubuntu/Debian for newbs, then > they learn and extend their system as they go?" > Ubuntu is working very hard on making their distribution 'newb' friendly, including fixing issues that first time users may experience aka 'paper cuts' (including my pet hate that 'Ubuntu' is not in the dictionary as a word!) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuWeeklyNewsletter/Issue148#First Paper Cut milestone reached >From my experience, Ubuntu is as less complex as it gets (at least at the moment). The installation is no more complex than Windows (albeit that most people have Windows pre-installed for them), and it comes pre installed with the features and drivers than 95% of users want and need. It is also relatively easy (a couple of clicks) to install the things that you want that are not installed. For everything else, there is the excellent Ubuntu Community Wiki and Ubuntu Forums. -- simon From nevynh at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 11:10:02 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Mon Jul 6 11:10:09 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: <4d1940c20907051554g7fc8b0c0k483645ef36d09d42@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> <7179.119.15.0.26.1246831926.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> <2494ad260907051541g3193a1fbl9ce0330155b4b55f@mail.gmail.com> <4d1940c20907051554g7fc8b0c0k483645ef36d09d42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 10:54 AM, Simon Green wrote: > From my experience, Ubuntu is as less complex as it gets (at least at the > moment). The installation is no more complex than Windows (albeit that most > people have Windows pre-installed for them), and it comes pre installed with > the features and drivers than 95% of users want and need. It is also > relatively easy (a couple of clicks) to install the things that you want > that are not installed. For everything else, there is the excellent Ubuntu > Community Wiki and Ubuntu Forums. > > ?-- simon Ubuntu is good and from my point of view, fairly easy to extend. I think there's also an inherent danger of learning only one system. i.e. deb based system. RPM is still relevant and it's worthwhile learning the packaging tools for RPM based systems as well. There's an inherent danger from learning only the one distribution and even though it's been a long time since I used a RH based system, I value my time there. I don't think there's a single answer to the original question. A lot of Linux adoption has happened via a trial and error basis and Ubuntu is doing great things to reduce the amount of this needed. I haven't used Fedora (ever) but would venture a guess and say that it would be fairly up there as well (Ubuntu do seem pretty good at the marketing side of things.) Regards, Nevyn. From leon at lost.co.nz Mon Jul 6 11:29:11 2009 From: leon at lost.co.nz (Leon Matthews) Date: Mon Jul 6 11:29:35 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] REMINDER: AuckLUG meeting @ RvB: VM's In-Reply-To: <8573.119.15.0.26.1246832884.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> References: <344870.90141.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A512606.90502@lost.co.nz> <8573.119.15.0.26.1246832884.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> Message-ID: <4A513747.90709@lost.co.nz> Mark Foster wrote: > Auckland LUG meeting details can be found here: > http://www.linux.net.nz/taxonomy/page/or/2 Thanks Mark. Does anyone have any parking tips? Cheers, Leon From baldwin.bryanmichael at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 11:36:46 2009 From: baldwin.bryanmichael at gmail.com (Bryan Baldwin) Date: Mon Jul 6 11:37:00 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> <7179.119.15.0.26.1246831926.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> <2494ad260907051541g3193a1fbl9ce0330155b4b55f@mail.gmail.com> <4d1940c20907051554g7fc8b0c0k483645ef36d09d42@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1246837006.3069.776.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2009-07-06 at 11:10 +1200, Nevyn wrote: > > I think there's also an inherent danger of learning only one system. > i.e. deb based system. > The primary objective of the GNU+Linux from Source Code project is to be able to automate the generation of other distributions with different combinations of administration tools ;) From nevynh at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 11:40:38 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Mon Jul 6 11:40:56 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] REMINDER: AuckLUG meeting @ RvB: VM's In-Reply-To: <4A513747.90709@lost.co.nz> References: <344870.90141.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A512606.90502@lost.co.nz> <8573.119.15.0.26.1246832884.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> <4A513747.90709@lost.co.nz> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Leon Matthews wrote: > Mark Foster wrote: >> >> Auckland LUG meeting details can be found here: >> http://www.linux.net.nz/taxonomy/page/or/2 > > Thanks Mark. > > Does anyone have any parking tips? > > Cheers, > > ? ? ? ?Leon *ouch* right you are. It's K-Road so it's going to be a challenge. There is a parking structure across the road behind k-road. Other than that, I think you're pretty much dependent on your own searching. On the plus side I don't think the parking meters are applicable after around 5. There's a thought - there's a food court across the road - does anyone want to meet up for dinner? From nevynh at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 11:50:14 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Mon Jul 6 11:50:21 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: <1246837006.3069.776.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> <7179.119.15.0.26.1246831926.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> <2494ad260907051541g3193a1fbl9ce0330155b4b55f@mail.gmail.com> <4d1940c20907051554g7fc8b0c0k483645ef36d09d42@mail.gmail.com> <1246837006.3069.776.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Bryan Baldwin wrote: > On Mon, 2009-07-06 at 11:10 +1200, Nevyn wrote: >> >> I think there's also an inherent danger of learning only one system. >> i.e. deb based system. > > The primary objective of the GNU+Linux from Source Code project is to > be able to automate the generation of other distributions with > different combinations of administration tools ;) and end plug :p I'm staying quiet on the topic until I decide if it meets a need for me or not. This could potentially be another project for me to try like linux from scratch. i.e. fun, interesting, teaches me a lot but ultimately a hobbyist project rather than anything practical. From candle.man.nz at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 11:58:45 2009 From: candle.man.nz at gmail.com (Kevin Adams) Date: Mon Jul 6 11:58:54 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] REMINDER: AuckLUG meeting @ RvB: VM's In-Reply-To: References: <344870.90141.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A512606.90502@lost.co.nz> <8573.119.15.0.26.1246832884.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> <4A513747.90709@lost.co.nz> Message-ID: <5b6001920907051658o5412b613m2d73fd32fc733a17@mail.gmail.com> Don't park illegally, there is a towie just waiting for you to leave the car. 2009/7/6 Nevyn > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:29 AM, Leon Matthews wrote: > > Mark Foster wrote: > >> > >> Auckland LUG meeting details can be found here: > >> http://www.linux.net.nz/taxonomy/page/or/2 > > > > Thanks Mark. > > > > Does anyone have any parking tips? > > > > Cheers, > > > > Leon > > *ouch* right you are. It's K-Road so it's going to be a challenge. > There is a parking structure across the road behind k-road. Other than > that, I think you're pretty much dependent on your own searching. On > the plus side I don't think the parking meters are applicable after > around 5. > > There's a thought - there's a food court across the road - does anyone > want to meet up for dinner? > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From ajchapman at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 12:32:57 2009 From: ajchapman at gmail.com (Anthony Chapman) Date: Mon Jul 6 12:33:06 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] REMINDER: AuckLUG meeting @ RvB: VM's In-Reply-To: References: <344870.90141.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A512606.90502@lost.co.nz> <8573.119.15.0.26.1246832884.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> <4A513747.90709@lost.co.nz> Message-ID: <2faa0aee0907051732j780abc4ex3878fc24e95abaee@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/6 Nevyn : > There's a thought - there's a food court across the road - does anyone > want to meet up for dinner? Sounds like a good idea. Foodcourt on opposite side of K Rd at 6:30pm? Or a little later? From nevynh at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 12:48:03 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Mon Jul 6 12:48:12 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] REMINDER: AuckLUG meeting @ RvB: VM's In-Reply-To: <2faa0aee0907051732j780abc4ex3878fc24e95abaee@mail.gmail.com> References: <344870.90141.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A512606.90502@lost.co.nz> <8573.119.15.0.26.1246832884.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> <4A513747.90709@lost.co.nz> <2faa0aee0907051732j780abc4ex3878fc24e95abaee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Anthony Chapman wrote: > 2009/7/6 Nevyn : >> There's a thought - there's a food court across the road - does anyone >> want to meet up for dinner? > Sounds like a good idea. Foodcourt on opposite side of K Rd at 6:30pm? > Or a little later? 6:30's a good time. They are a food court rather than Subway so allow for around 10-15 minutes for the food to be made. Also, out of respect, we probably shouldn't take food into RvB. From leon at lost.co.nz Mon Jul 6 13:01:44 2009 From: leon at lost.co.nz (Leon Matthews) Date: Mon Jul 6 13:02:00 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] REMINDER: AuckLUG meeting @ RvB: VM's In-Reply-To: References: <344870.90141.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A512606.90502@lost.co.nz> <8573.119.15.0.26.1246832884.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> <4A513747.90709@lost.co.nz> <2faa0aee0907051732j780abc4ex3878fc24e95abaee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A514CF8.2040000@lost.co.nz> Nevyn wrote: >>> There's a thought - there's a food court across the road - does anyone >>> want to meet up for dinner? > 6:30's a good time. Sounds good, I'll be there trying to find you. I wonder if Linux-user stereotypes will be enough to identify each other in the food court. I *am* bearded, but it's too cold and wet at the moment for sandals and socks... :-P Leon From nevynh at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 13:07:11 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Mon Jul 6 13:07:17 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] REMINDER: AuckLUG meeting @ RvB: VM's In-Reply-To: <4A514CF8.2040000@lost.co.nz> References: <344870.90141.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A512606.90502@lost.co.nz> <8573.119.15.0.26.1246832884.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> <4A513747.90709@lost.co.nz> <2faa0aee0907051732j780abc4ex3878fc24e95abaee@mail.gmail.com> <4A514CF8.2040000@lost.co.nz> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Leon Matthews wrote: > > I wonder if Linux-user stereotypes will be enough to identify each other in > the food court. ?I *am* bearded, but it's too cold and wet at the moment for > sandals and socks... :-P > > ? ? ? ?Leon I'm not sure any time is a good time for sandals and socks. The beard I can do.... From srdan.dukic at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 13:38:44 2009 From: srdan.dukic at gmail.com (Srdan Dukic) Date: Mon Jul 6 13:38:54 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] London Stock Exchange dumps Windows In-Reply-To: References: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907040256k564a8f70v95f3f1362a220ec8@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907041540n37177942hd22b8492588f2a95@mail.gmail.com> <025701c9fd1d$7540cdf0$5fc269d0$@co.nz> Message-ID: <4c2ae0690907051838s48147ea6t904eeecdb678ede4@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/6 Nevyn : > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Aaron Pelly wrote: >>> corporations'. ?The truth is that many corporations run hybrid or mixed >>> systems, leveraging the capabilities of the platforms that're best for a >>> given purpose >> >> Mark, your sanity is rather sucking the fun out of this. OTOH the article _was_ >> peculiarly aggressive and confrontational. > > He's right though. The article left vagueness left right and center > and was essentially a fud piece. There is absolutely nothing of > substance in there. It's taken a few events - crash, CEO leaving, new > CEO dumping software. Everything else is opinion or fud. There's > nothing concrete in there to say that it was the MS stack or the > infrastructure. Only that they're dumping the software on top. No word > on what's happening with the infrastructure so conjecture towards > Linux seems just plain silly. > > Let's get it clear and not fall into the way of the FUD. > > Regards, > Nevyn. > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > After a good nights sleep and taking another look at what I wrote I feel a little embarassed about being so agressive. Mark and Nevyn, you guys are both right. While we cannot rule out that the technology was the problem, there is no way that we can say that the reason that the project failed was due to the technology stack and to say so, or to imply that this is the case would be fud pure and simple. I was outraged because I know that personally, if I had been put in charge of a software project, got to pick the vendor worked on the project for four years and come out with a failure, I would have no illusions of whose fault it was (for whatever reason) . However, assuming that the technology was not the issue, it could just be a problem with that particular vendor/branch of MS as both Mark and Nevyn pointed out. I apologise for my agressive tone, and I hope that there aren't any hard feelings. Thank you -- Sr?an ?uki? From nevynh at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 14:11:36 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Mon Jul 6 14:12:20 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] London Stock Exchange dumps Windows In-Reply-To: <4c2ae0690907051838s48147ea6t904eeecdb678ede4@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907040256k564a8f70v95f3f1362a220ec8@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907041540n37177942hd22b8492588f2a95@mail.gmail.com> <025701c9fd1d$7540cdf0$5fc269d0$@co.nz> <4c2ae0690907051838s48147ea6t904eeecdb678ede4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Srdan Dukic wrote: > > After a good nights sleep and taking another look at what I wrote I > feel a little embarassed about being so agressive. Mark and Nevyn, you > guys are both right. While we cannot rule out that the technology was > the problem, there is no way that we can say that the reason that the > project failed was due to the technology stack and to say so, or to > imply that this is the case would be fud pure and simple. > > I was outraged because I know that personally, if I had been put in > charge of a software project, got to pick the vendor worked on the > project for four years and come out with a failure, I would have no > illusions of whose fault it was (for whatever reason) . However, > assuming that the technology was not the issue, it could just be a > problem with that particular vendor/branch of MS as both Mark and > Nevyn pointed out. > > I apologise for my agressive tone, and I hope that there aren't any > hard feelings. > > Thank you > -- > Sr?an ?uki? Dude! I was more faulting the article. No apologies needed. I think the article was very misleading in that it's an overzealous Linux guy taking a couple of events and using his own Linux colored glasses has come to some conclusions that support his own argument. A similar incident happened a few weeks ago. My sister stated: "I had a gluten free muffin and I free great!". I responded with "I raised both arms above my head and didn't get a headache!". She looked at me as if I was a mad man. "Were you headaches?" she asked. I wasn't getting headaches. She had said something that I presume was supposed to be of monumental importance (to her at least). However, if you step back and examine the statement,it's easy to see how silly it really is. That article sort of falls into that category to me. So little in the way of actual facts and the worst bit is that the author doesn't seem to have indicated clearly that it's a couple of facts loosely strung together with his own argument. This sort of reporting really isn't doing the Linux movement any favors. Had they used Linux, who's to say that the software running on top of Linux was well written and implemented and not going to result in an outage? Would we have to then conclude that Linux isn't suitable for mission-critical functions? Still, we live and learn. Regards, Nevyn. From blakjak at blakjak.net Mon Jul 6 14:30:49 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Mon Jul 6 14:30:58 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] REMINDER: AuckLUG meeting @ RvB: VM's In-Reply-To: References: <344870.90141.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A512606.90502@lost.co.nz> <8573.119.15.0.26.1246832884.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> <4A513747.90709@lost.co.nz> <2faa0aee0907051732j780abc4ex3878fc24e95abaee@mail.gmail.com> <4A514CF8.2040000@lost.co.nz> Message-ID: <33739.119.15.0.26.1246847449.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> On Mon, July 6, 2009 1:07 pm, Nevyn wrote: > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Leon Matthews wrote: >> >> I wonder if Linux-user stereotypes will be enough to identify each other >> in >> the food court. ?I *am* bearded, but it's too cold and wet at the moment >> for >> sandals and socks... :-P >> >> ? ? ? ?Leon > > I'm not sure any time is a good time for sandals and socks. The beard > I can do.... > +1. I wont be there - geographically challenged, sadly - and I will otherwise point out that parking meters are charged til 6pm. There's a parking building on Mercury Lane (opposite the end of Pitt St) which wasnt too bad, can't remember what time it shuts however. From blakjak at blakjak.net Mon Jul 6 14:36:37 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Mon Jul 6 14:36:47 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] London Stock Exchange dumps Windows In-Reply-To: References: <4c2ae0690907032016i485097a8j2eb322b1290feca1@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907040256k564a8f70v95f3f1362a220ec8@mail.gmail.com> <4c2ae0690907041540n37177942hd22b8492588f2a95@mail.gmail.com> <025701c9fd1d$7540cdf0$5fc269d0$@co.nz> <4c2ae0690907051838s48147ea6t904eeecdb678ede4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <34288.119.15.0.26.1246847797.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> On Mon, July 6, 2009 2:11 pm, Nevyn wrote: > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:38 PM, Srdan Dukic wrote: >> >> >> I apologise for my agressive tone, and I hope that there aren't any >> hard feelings. > > Dude! I was more faulting the article. No apologies needed. I think > the article was very misleading in that it's an overzealous Linux guy > taking a couple of events and using his own Linux colored glasses has > come to some conclusions that support his own argument. *grin*. I basically agree with Nevyn. Zealots who bash the opposition and yell 'Linux' at the top of their lungs don't do us any favours either. I like the approach of the quiet achiever, personally; the merits of a system speak for themselves when the system is reliable, robust, secure, etc etc. No hard feelings. This is a discussion forum and we're not all going to agree all the time; I contribute here in the full expectation that someone's likely to contradict me ( and I often learn things from the feedback posted). Cheers Mark. From tobias.gerschner at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 21:56:32 2009 From: tobias.gerschner at gmail.com (Tobias Gerschner) Date: Mon Jul 6 21:56:43 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: REMINDER: AuckLUG meeting @ RvB: VM's Message-ID: Hi, I wanted to say thank you for all the input around VMs. Sorry, that I had to leave so abruptly at the end of the VirtualBox presentation ( family matters ). It's been my first meeting in a while that I attended and I certainly enjoyed the hands on style. Looking forward to see more of that. I do think though we should put more effort in organizing a suitable venue that we can use regularly. -- Tobias Gerschner Yoper Linux - www.yoper.com Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do. From james.carroll at xnet.co.nz Tue Jul 7 02:04:32 2009 From: james.carroll at xnet.co.nz (James Carroll) Date: Tue Jul 7 02:06:47 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Ubuntu RAM requirements In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090706140601.AF3C71DB81D7@titania.wxnz.net> On 30/06/09, Juan wrote: > James, my own personal opinion is that you just run vanilla Ubuntu 9. > You've got enough grunt to run it pretty well (for your goals). > Don't get me wrong... It could run better with more shaved down distros or > with some haxing, but for a user like you? Nah, vanilla should work nicely > :) So, I got my Telecom Mobile MF636 usb modem today for my EeePC 701 Ubuntu netboox remix setup.. Telecom said I could return it if it failed to work, no charge. That sounded pretty good to me! I played with it for as long as I could, I was hoping to get it working myself, but I failed after a good hour or so, so I popped along to the meeting. I got there, and after the presentation we didnt really have a net connection, or much juice left in my battery, and the place was closing, so I toddled off home with some ideas and some existing ones already from my forums searching earlier that day. Anyway, heres my update to the people I talked to tonight: I finally got that usb_modeswitch thing working in town before my bus arrived, so the mass storage part of the Telecom MF636 flicked over to the modem part, and I was able to see its modem id in "lsusb".. I entered Telecom settings into Network Manager that I found on a website, using a Vodafone profile and then just modifying it (because there was no Telecom profiles under "New Zealand" in Network Manager).. no luck there (seemingly).. Then I tried using pppconfig and pon, wouldnt work with whatever I had setup, So I eventually downloaded gtkterm to enter the modem string " AT+ZCDRUN=8" to turn off "auto run virtual cd". Then I typed "dmesg | grep" tty to see the port number that had been assigned to the modem.. and then, it connected by itself somehow! I rebooted a few times, and yep, it continues to work. I was not methodical, I dont know what I'm doing, I followed (or tried to follow) different paths from different websites..... and well... it now works. And man I've never been so happy to see a little blue light blink on and off before! Unfortunately I wasnt methodical at all so I cant pass on any knowledge to anyone else. :( Upon reflection, I'm guessing one of my many many changes did the trick somehow. Is that the technician way? play with it until it works? I dunno. My 1gb RAM should arrive in the next few days. With my current 512mb system, I'm typically having about 10-30mb free ram according to "tops". Seems a little.. whats the word.. tight! I didnt say much at the meeting, but I found it cool hearing you guys discuss stuff that I barely knew about before. I will definitely come to future meetings. P.S. gedit > vi (well, for me anyway) From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 02:28:18 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 7 02:28:27 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: REMINDER: AuckLUG meeting @ RvB: VM's In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 9:56 PM, Tobias Gerschner wrote: > Hi, > > I wanted to say thank you for all the input around VMs. Sorry, that I > had to leave so abruptly at the end of the VirtualBox presentation ( > family matters ). > > It's been my first meeting in a while that I attended and I certainly > enjoyed the hands on style. Looking forward to see more of that. > > I do think though we should put more effort in organizing a suitable > venue that we can use regularly. > > -- > Tobias Gerschner > Yoper Linux - www.yoper.com Hi Tobias, Thank you for speaking at tonight's meeting. I think it was a pretty good meeting. We did start to run out of time in that the place closed at 9 and there were still discussions going on and the music that was being played was giving me a bit of a headache. Regardless, good turn out (around 20 people I think?), great subject matter and loads of input from everyone there. I do see RvB as a bit of a fallback position - if we can get a better venue i.e. a conference room with no distractions. The beer is a bit of a bonus at RvB though I did find myself indulging a bit much... There were a couple of things that came up which would make a good topic on the list. For example, the question was asked, when would you use PostgreSQL over MySQL or vice versa. There was some discussion about using NoMachineNX - there is a bit of an issue here in that I think there's an opensource client but the server is still closed source and is limited in the number of clients you can have connecting. I didn't really get a chance to speak, but that's okay on the basis that Jaco covered most of what I was going to say around Xen. I also arrived just as the meeting was starting - my beard (and thus I) was out having dinner with a couple of guys from the group. There were a couple of other things I was going to talk about but I can do these as posts which probably works out better. Around Xen:- In the early days, before hardware Intel-VT / AMD-V support, the guests needed a modified kernel. The hardware support brought about the capability of running unmodified kernels (i.e. Windows) under Xen. When I tried it, back during these days, I was struggling to find instructions on doing cross distribution stuff. i.e. I would've liked to be able to run CentOS on a Debian host. I could run a Debian guest under a Debian host - these instructions were in abundance but mixing things up - no instructions that I could find. Given that Xen is paravirtualisation (i.e. doesn't emulate EVERYTHING) I'm not sure how the hardware support effects thing. It seems to be the norm nowadays to use the hardware support and not modifying the kernel. I didn't actually end up doing the research I was intending to do on the basis that I had seen Jaco's slides (and still missed the spelling mistake that was Cirtix) and so had decided to leave it to Jaco and concentrate on a few other little bits an' pieces so I'm still sketchy and haven't answered the questions that I was intending on researching. Anyway, that's about all I have on the subject. Regards, Nevyn. From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 02:33:35 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 7 02:33:50 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Ubuntu RAM requirements In-Reply-To: <20090706140601.AF3C71DB81D7@titania.wxnz.net> References: <20090706140601.AF3C71DB81D7@titania.wxnz.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:04 AM, James Carroll wrote: > On 30/06/09, Juan wrote: > So, I got my Telecom Mobile MF636 usb modem today for my EeePC 701 Ubuntu > netboox remix setup.. Telecom said I could return it if it failed to work, no > charge. That sounded pretty good to me! I played with it for as long as I > could, I was hoping to get it working myself, but I failed after a good hour > or so, so I popped along to the meeting. I got there, and after the > presentation we didnt really have a net connection, or much juice left in my > battery, and the place was closing, so I toddled off home with some ideas and > some existing ones already from my forums searching earlier that day. > > Anyway, heres my update to the people I talked to tonight: > > I finally got that usb_modeswitch thing working in town before my bus > arrived, so the mass storage part of the Telecom MF636 flicked over to the > modem part, and I was able to see its modem id in "lsusb".. I entered Telecom > settings into Network Manager that I found on a website, using a Vodafone > profile and then just modifying it (because there was no Telecom profiles > under "New Zealand" in Network Manager).. no luck there (seemingly).. > Then I tried using pppconfig and pon, wouldnt work with whatever I had setup, > So I eventually downloaded gtkterm to enter the modem string " AT+ZCDRUN=8" > to turn off "auto run virtual cd". Then I typed "dmesg | grep" tty to see > the port number that had been assigned to the modem.. and then, it connected > by itself somehow! I rebooted a few times, and yep, it continues to work. I > was not methodical, I dont know what I'm doing, I followed (or tried to > follow) different paths from different websites..... and well... it now > works. And man I've never been so happy to see a little blue light blink on > and off before! > > Unfortunately I wasnt methodical at all so I cant pass on any knowledge to > anyone else. :( Upon reflection, I'm guessing one of my many many changes did > the trick somehow. Is that the technician way? play with it until it works? I > dunno. > > My 1gb RAM should arrive in the next few days. With my current 512mb system, > I'm typically having about 10-30mb free ram according to "tops". Seems a > little.. whats the word.. tight! > > I didnt say much at the meeting, but I found it cool hearing you guys discuss > stuff that I barely knew about before. I will definitely come to future > meetings. > > P.S. gedit > vi > (well, for me anyway) Hi James, It was a pleasure meeting you. I'm glad you got it working. Did you try the kppp route at all? My apologies for being a bit vague. Here's a secret (not much of a secret given that I'm writing this to the list). For most of the support stuff I do, I refer to the internet. Google is a bit of an artform in that play around with Linux enough and you find yourself coming up with interesting search terms which just seem to bring up the right results. I'm sure half of using Linux is being able to figure out what to search for. Regards, Nevyn. From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 02:49:22 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 7 02:49:42 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux In Schools Message-ID: Hi Guys, One of things I was going to talk about was the idea of Linux in schools. The idea is to have computers that we could donate to schools with Linux on them. Jaco and I have been talking about this on very general terms. This hasn't be discussed, but for my money, I'd like to be able to get a lab full of computers for a high school. This would essentially be a pilot programme to show that it can be done, can be productive, and can be done by people in the community. There would have to be several parts to this. Firstly we'd need an umbrella to put these efforts into this. Secondly, we'd need to find ways of fund raising in order to find the funds to be able to buy computers. Thirdly, we'd need a school to who'd be willing to participate. We'd need to be able to source computers/components. And finally, my end game, we'd need a register of capable Linux technicians. I say this is my end game in that I believe this would help create OSS jobs. I'll say a bit more about this in my next email. In terms of fund raising, I was thinking that there's a sort of harmony to the idea of making some money via certifying. If we were to hold some sort of workshop, and ask for donations, for LPIC training (exams would have to be done under your own steam as you have to be accredited to be able to administer the exam) we would be helping to certify people in an industry that we're trying to promote. There's a sort of poetic justice in educating while aiming to educate.... Grays Online often have ex-lease machines which go fairly cheaply (I've brought several of these machines - they're rocking for the price you can pick 'em up at) but lack monitor / keyboard and mouse. Keyboard and mouse I'm not seeing as too big an issue, but monitors are still fairly expensive so we need ideas on where we could get monitors cheaply. We'll be posting about this on NZLUG and NZOSS some time fairly soon just to make sure we're not duplicating our efforts. Regards, Nevyn. From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 02:58:14 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 7 02:59:06 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] NZQA Courses... Message-ID: There was some news today about the NZ Computer Society in co-operation with the education commission coming up with a way forward with ICT (Information and Communication Technology) NZQA qualifications. There are 5 basic categories: * Electronics * Programming and Computer Science * Digital Information * Digital Media * Digital Infrastructure (including networking, hardware, software and systems) Why am I mentioning this? Well basically, in order for a school to be able to offer these sorts of courses, they'd need a computer lab with development software, circuit simulation (not absolutely necessary but a nice to have) and an operating system that's flexible enough to be able to have a play with without having to worry about licensing issues. In otherwords, I see this as a great big entry point for Linux into secondary schools. This could potentially create OSS jobs. i.e. implementing labs, coming up with documentation on things to try, training teachers (or possibly even becoming a teacher) etc. This fits into my whole "end game". Regards, Nevyn. From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 03:11:50 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 7 03:11:59 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Labour's Copyright Forum Message-ID: Hi Guys, I'm going to the copyright forum on Wednesday night and so wondered if you guys have anything you'd like me to perhaps bring up during the forum. Clare Curren, the MP who's initiated the forum, is very approachable despite my sometimes confrontational stance. I have an issue in that I'm unable to reconcile Labour's current line with what she said in the invitation for the forum. The quote that best sums up the current line is this: This is a critical issue and government needs to pay attention and get it right. It's not going to make the front page *unless there's a major internet blackout being threatened). But it's extremely important that government shows balance and vision. Labour gets that. It us a while, but we get it and we're committed to a sound policy that will take this country forward......... you can be part of that if you're interested...... It all feels a little like it's been obscured by Labour coloured glasses. Given that before the election the attitude seemed to be "Tough. Live with it" and now they're interested in what we have to say. My own feeling on this is that it's no good saying that we shouldn't have anything around copyright infringement and the internet because I think it's pretty much a given that something's going to happen here. So for me, it's about finding a solution that meets my criteria. My criteria being: * Natural Justice must be observed. * The tax payer should not have to pay for the rights of a private entity (i.e. the copyright holder). * ISP's should not be asked to be responsible (if I sold a hammer to someone who used that hammer to kill someone, is it really my responsibility to remove that hammer from 'im?) In otherwords, if you think that I'm violating your copyright, given that it's you that's to gain from me being charged for copyright infringement, you should have to pay for it. If you get the claim wrong, you've lost something and so you better make sure those claims are real. Regards, Nevyn. From james.carroll at xnet.co.nz Tue Jul 7 03:14:22 2009 From: james.carroll at xnet.co.nz (James Carroll) Date: Tue Jul 7 03:16:35 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Ubuntu RAM requirements In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090706151555.F34961DB811F@titania.wxnz.net> On 07/07/09, Nevyn wrote: > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:04 AM, James Carroll > wrote: >> On 30/06/09, Juan wrote: >> So, I got my Telecom Mobile MF636 usb modem today for my EeePC 701 Ubuntu >> netboox remix setup.. Telecom said I could return it if it failed to work, >> no charge. That sounded pretty good to me! I played with it for as long as >> I could, I was hoping to get it working myself, but I failed after a good >> hour or so, so I popped along to the meeting. I got there, and after the >> presentation we didnt really have a net connection, or much juice left in >> my battery, and the place was closing, so I toddled off home with some >> ideas and some existing ones already from my forums searching earlier that >> day. >> Anyway, heres my update to the people I talked to tonight: >> >> I finally got that usb_modeswitch thing working in town before my bus >> arrived, so the mass storage part of the Telecom MF636 flicked over to the >> modem part, and I was able to see its modem id in "lsusb".. I entered >> Telecom settings into Network Manager that I found on a website, using a >> Vodafone profile and then just modifying it (because there was no Telecom >> profiles under "New Zealand" in Network Manager).. no luck there >> (seemingly).. Then I tried using pppconfig and pon, wouldnt work with >> whatever I had setup, So I eventually downloaded gtkterm to enter the >> modem string " AT+ZCDRUN=8" to turn off "auto run virtual cd". Then I >> typed "dmesg | grep" tty to see the port number that had been assigned to >> the modem.. and then, it connected by itself somehow! I rebooted a few >> times, and yep, it continues to work. I was not methodical, I dont know >> what I'm doing, I followed (or tried to follow) different paths from >> different websites..... and well... it now works. And man I've never been >> so happy to see a little blue light blink on and off before! >> > Hi James, > It was a pleasure meeting you. I'm glad you got it working. Did you > try the kppp route at all? My apologies for being a bit vague. Here's > a secret (not much of a secret given that I'm writing this to the > list). For most of the support stuff I do, I refer to the internet. > Google is a bit of an artform in that play around with Linux enough > and you find yourself coming up with interesting search terms which > just seem to bring up the right results. I'm sure half of using Linux > is being able to figure out what to search for. > Regards, > Nevyn. Yep, I tried kppp. I couldnt get it to work. I've removed it since I got the goods working, and my connection is still working. My details are vague, because I dont really know what I'm doing, but as far as I can tell this is how I got it working... Install usb_modeswitch. Then once the modem id is showing up in "lsusb" as 19d2:0031, then you know the device has flicked over from the mass storage driver to the modem driver. Then go into Network Manager, and as theres no Telecom listings under New Zealand, just select the Vodafone template, then delete its entries and enter these values: Number: *99# Username: mobile@jamamobile Password: telecom APN: direct.telecom.co.nz Go into the IPv4 settings tab and change: Method to Automatic (PPP).. then it grabs the DNS servers automatically.. And yes.. google searches are good. I usually just search for a disjointed question, with maybe "how do you" and include key words, and as few non essential other words as possible. I found a bunch of links within minutes earlier today, but I didnt correctly implement the solutions until 2am. haha. The thing is, any problems I ever have, I just know a bunch of people would probably have already asked for help on the forums before. It's rare that a search doesnt answer all my questions. :) But yeah, those 4-5 links stayed in my browser tabs all evening. Just took me a while to implement them fully. I'll join you guys for a meal next time too. If I had checked my emails when I got home from lifting sofas, I would have shot into town an hour earlier! I was starving. I nearly ate my laptop on the way home. From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 03:21:59 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 7 03:22:07 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Ubuntu RAM requirements In-Reply-To: <20090706151555.F34961DB811F@titania.wxnz.net> References: <20090706151555.F34961DB811F@titania.wxnz.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:14 AM, James Carroll wrote: > > I'll join you guys for a meal next time too. If I had checked my emails when > I got home from lifting sofas, I would have shot into town an hour earlier! I > was starving. I nearly ate my laptop on the way home. It was a bit of an after thought around mid-day. I wasn't going to have a chance to grab lunch but I was feeling oh so very hungry... Dinner was on my mind :) From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 03:36:37 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 7 03:37:19 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] G2009 Message-ID: For those that don't know, G2009 refers to the Governments negotiations with MS. This has happened every 3 years since 2000. (G2000, G2003 and G2006). The deal is made for all Government agencies except the Education Commission. G2009 however hasn't gone as swimmingly as the government would like to hope. So, basically there's a "price certainty" and each agency is to negotiate their own deals or take the "price certainty". I read over the slides (I'll post a link if anyone's interested in having a read themselves) and there were a couple of slides that were sort of interesting. Main Drivers: * Fiscal Position * Value for money * Individual agency business requirements * Technology Trends It's nice to see "Value for Money" in there. This point is reiterated several times in various ways throughout the slides. However, I was rather surprised by some of the suggestions that was in the slides. In a slide entitled "Your Options" they had the following: * Sign-up to MS's offer * Negotiate individually with MS using their offer as a basis * Negotiate, as a sector, with MS using their offer as a basis * Investigate alternative solutions You'll notice that "Investigate alternative solutions" is right at the bottom of the list. However, later on in the presentation, there's a slide with the loaded question "Is MS going where you want to go?" Perhaps investigating alternative solutions should have been higher up on the list. But the suggestion I saw as just plain disgusting, there was mention of buying software assets before the G2006 deal expired and "sweating" software assets (using software beyond it's life cycle. i.e. continuing to use Windows XP beyond it's support period). This to me violates the last point in the "Main Drivers" Slide and seems to suggest that IT stall within the government. Anyway, it's relevance to Linux? Linux is a "alternative solution". I'm not all that optimistic about it as Linux may be an alternative solution on paper, but for my money (for what little there is), I'm willing to bet a CIO would produce some FUD around Linux to keep their familiar MS stack while making it look like they've investigated the alternatives. Still, I'd be very happy to be proven wrong. Regards, Nevyn. From bob.harvey at work.net.nz Tue Jul 7 11:10:03 2009 From: bob.harvey at work.net.nz (Bob Harvey) Date: Tue Jul 7 11:10:19 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Labour's Copyright Forum (Nevyn) Message-ID: <7l8pq2$5drvva@smtp.mailfilter4.ihug.co.nz> Hi Nevyn, Won't be able to make it myself, but I personally think it is time that some explicit principles get established as to what constitutes 'fair use'. For example, if a work comes out of copyright (as all will eventually do, or should do) then what sanctions are there against publishers who have locked the work inside some form of DRM or similar restriction? If a work is within copyright but unobtainable (e.g. out of print), can a publisher make it impractical for anyone to legitimately copy the work for their own purposes? There are many areas where the rights and responsibilities of different parties are not clearly defined -- establishment of some fair use principles would go a long way towards minimising the trend to power resting with those with the deepest pockets. Cheers, Bob. From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 11:29:11 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 7 11:29:24 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Labour's Copyright Forum (Nevyn) In-Reply-To: <7l8pq2$5drvva@smtp.mailfilter4.ihug.co.nz> References: <7l8pq2$5drvva@smtp.mailfilter4.ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Bob Harvey wrote: > Hi Nevyn, > > Won't be able to make it myself, but I personally think it is time that some explicit principles get established as to what constitutes 'fair use'. > > For example, if a work comes out of copyright (as all will eventually do, or should do) then what sanctions are there against publishers who have locked the work inside some form of DRM or similar restriction? ?If a work is within copyright but unobtainable (e.g. out of print), can a publisher make it impractical for anyone to legitimately copy the work for their own purposes? > > There are many areas where the rights and responsibilities of different parties are not clearly defined -- establishment of some fair use principles would go a long way towards minimising the trend to power resting with those with the deepest pockets. > > Cheers, Bob. As far as I know, there is no provision for "fair use" in New Zealand that I know of. There is some sort of exception for educators to photocopy materials but I'm not sure how far that goes. There's a bit of controversy around public domain. Check out this article: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/26/copyfraud/ So unless there's an impartial watchdog protecting the public domain, it could all be lost in a big cloud of ambiguous legalities. Where I'm really sketchy is what constitutes copyright infringement. If I go to a website, and as a result download (electronically copy) an image which has a copyright, am I infringing copyright according to NZ law? Or alternatively, if I use a cache somewhere - say it's not owned by me. I go to a corporate website looking for something and their logo is copied into the cache. The cache is an unintended recipient of copyrighted material. Is the owner of the cache in essence committing copyright fraud? I know, I'm splitting hairs, but it's at the extremes that you see the more interesting stuff happen. Regards, Nevyn. From stuart at hrdnz.com Tue Jul 7 11:31:07 2009 From: stuart at hrdnz.com (Stuart Mealor) Date: Tue Jul 7 11:31:34 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] NZQA Courses... Message-ID: <0A58741B-F3FC-4731-9115-9052520AFC62@hrdnz.com> Following on from Nevyn's comment on linux in schools. Yes, isn't it great to see this opportunity! :-) I've had a lot of experience with NZQA, and similar bodies. (I'm a qualified teacher, - used to be a M$ Certified Trainer (apologies!)) Worked in public and private sectors. One of my current roles is global certification manager for Moodle - the open source learning management system. I've been working on an openicdl project for about 18 months. (International Computer Driving Licence). This is a true international qualification which is managed locally by NZCS. Take a look at www.openicdl.org to get an idea of this project. I am ALWAYS looking for experts and help with this project - and we are now working with people in the UK, Greece, and South Africa to push this OPEN ICDL forward :-) I'd like to see NZQA and NZCS working to more international standards. Local (NZQA) qualifications are OK, but it's an increasingly international workplace. New directions are inevitable after a change of government - and this is always an opportunity to make things better, or conversely to create new positions for self-absorbed educators and administrators who have no real world experience and are simply creating their own jobs. I'd love to see more linux in schools. Every kid I speak to has an opinion about whether Apple os better than PC etc. They are keen to know more ! It's largely the marketing machine and contractual tie-ins of MS Windows OS that stops schools broadening their ICT curriculum :-( Stu From tich at clad.co.nz Tue Jul 7 12:09:35 2009 From: tich at clad.co.nz (tich@clad.co.nz) Date: Tue Jul 7 12:09:53 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] G2009 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A52923F.8070403@clad.co.nz> Nevyn wrote: > But the suggestion I saw as just plain disgusting, there was mention > of buying software assets before the G2006 deal expired and "sweating" > software assets (using software beyond it's life cycle. i.e. > continuing to use Windows XP beyond it's support period). This to me > violates the last point in the "Main Drivers" Slide and seems to > suggest that IT stall within the government. > I suspect you will find that many people are considering staying with XP for as long as possible, not just government agencies. There doesn't seem to be any real move towards Vista and Windows 7 isn't here yet. With the current drive to reduce costs, why would you move if there isn't any real need to. Like it or not, XP does work and works well for most people who are, in the end, simply tool users who want something that will get the job done. > Anyway, it's relevance to Linux? Linux is a "alternative solution". > I'm not all that optimistic about it as Linux may be an alternative > solution on paper, but for my money (for what little there is), I'm > willing to bet a CIO would produce some FUD around Linux to keep their > familiar MS stack while making it look like they've investigated the > alternatives. > > Still, I'd be very happy to be proven wrong. > That's bordering on the offensive. Open Source is definitely making inroads in government IT albeit mainly in the back room. I'm sure that if the costs of changing to an OS desktop pan out and if full, relatively painless integration can be achieved then CIOs will seriously consider moving. However, it isn't as easy as some people think. For instance, I know of aat least one variety of corporate software, Linux based incidently, which uses MS Office to generate documents on the fly. Anyone using this as their backend won't be moving to an Open Source desktop anytime soon. From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 12:10:23 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 7 12:10:32 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] NZQA Courses... In-Reply-To: <0A58741B-F3FC-4731-9115-9052520AFC62@hrdnz.com> References: <0A58741B-F3FC-4731-9115-9052520AFC62@hrdnz.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Stuart Mealor wrote: > Following on from Nevyn's comment on linux in schools. > > It's largely the marketing machine and contractual tie-ins of MS Windows OS > that stops schools broadening their ICT curriculum :-( Let's be fair. Windows technicians are easier to find than Linux technicians. Give a man a hammer and he sees every problem as a nail. Seems so true of Windows. Anyway, the marketing machine is a big piece of the puzzle but we've got to fit on a couple of different fronts. We need to show 'em that support is available - technical as well as offering resources. We need to show them that they can do more! for less! (am I sounding like an informercial yet?). We need to iterate the flexibility of the system (i.e. take this livecd home, try it on your computer, copy it and share it with your friends etc. Give it to your students and let them take it for test drive. If you're not sharing it, you're not doing it right!). The creation of jobs in OSS should have a cascading effect. If we've offered a screw driver as well, then the OSes can go head to head on merit in the future rather than schools being an MS factory. Regards, Nevyn. From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 12:23:07 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 7 12:23:16 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] G2009 In-Reply-To: <4A52923F.8070403@clad.co.nz> References: <4A52923F.8070403@clad.co.nz> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 12:09 PM, wrote: > > > Nevyn wrote: >> But the suggestion I saw as just plain disgusting, there was mention >> of buying software assets before the G2006 deal expired and "sweating" >> software assets (using software beyond it's life cycle. i.e. >> continuing to use Windows XP beyond it's support period). This to me >> violates the last point in the "Main Drivers" Slide and seems to >> suggest that IT stall within the government. >> > I suspect you will find that many people are considering staying with XP > for as long as possible, not just government agencies. ?There doesn't > seem to be any real move towards Vista and Windows 7 isn't here yet. > With the current drive to reduce costs, why would you move if there > isn't any real need to. ?Like it or not, XP does work and works well for > most people who are, in the end, simply tool users who want something > that will get the job done. Okay, I can understand that. But what we're looking at is 3 years until the next round of negotiations. 3 years is an awfully long time in I.T. terms. I would still say look at alternatives before throwing more money MS's way. Who's to say the next negotiation is going to be any more satisfactory? It'd probably be cheaper in the long run to look at alternatives now rather than looking over the fence in three years time and wondering why you've invested so much in MS. >> Anyway, it's relevance to Linux? Linux is a "alternative solution". >> I'm not all that optimistic about it as Linux may be an alternative >> solution on paper, but for my money (for what little there is), I'm >> willing to bet a CIO would produce some FUD around Linux to keep their >> familiar MS stack while making it look like they've investigated the >> alternatives. >> >> Still, I'd be very happy to be proven wrong. >> > That's bordering on the offensive. ?Open Source is definitely making > inroads in government IT albeit mainly in the back room. ?I'm sure that > if the costs of changing to an OS desktop pan out and if full, > relatively painless integration can be achieved then CIOs will seriously > consider moving. > > However, it isn't as easy as some people think. ?For instance, I know of > aat least one variety of corporate software, Linux based incidently, > which uses MS Office to generate documents on the fly. ?Anyone using > this as their backend won't be moving to an Open Source desktop anytime > soon. It was meant to. I've known a lot of people who, when presented with a solution to their problem, would rather fit themselves awkwardly around a MS product rather than explore the option that would probably be a better fit. I don't have great faith in the decision making process for software acquisition. While not exclusively the realm of the government, they're not excluded from my paranoiac view of IT acquisition in general. Problem(n) = Nail where Man+Hammer=True From tich at clad.co.nz Tue Jul 7 12:58:50 2009 From: tich at clad.co.nz (tich@clad.co.nz) Date: Tue Jul 7 12:59:03 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] G2009 In-Reply-To: References: <4A52923F.8070403@clad.co.nz> Message-ID: <4A529DCA.7060605@clad.co.nz> Nevyn wrote: > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 12:09 PM, wrote: > >> >> I suspect you will find that many people are considering staying with XP >> for as long as possible, not just government agencies. There doesn't >> seem to be any real move towards Vista and Windows 7 isn't here yet. >> With the current drive to reduce costs, why would you move if there >> isn't any real need to. Like it or not, XP does work and works well for >> most people who are, in the end, simply tool users who want something >> that will get the job done. >> > > Okay, I can understand that. But what we're looking at is 3 years > until the next round of negotiations. 3 years is an awfully long time > in I.T. terms. I would still say look at alternatives before throwing > more money MS's way. Who's to say the next negotiation is going to be > any more satisfactory? It'd probably be cheaper in the long run to > look at alternatives now rather than looking over the fence in three > years time and wondering why you've invested so much in MS. > > Three years isn't a particularly long time on the desktop in my opinion. For the vast majority of users three years makes very little difference to them apart from maybe, just maybe, having to learn a new version of MS Office - which they don't really need as an upgrade because most of them just change write letters and change fonts. Some use more specialised software which does need to be upgraded. However, most of this is Windows based and there is a huge investment in both time and money to overcome. For instance, to migrate from a proprietry Windows based GIS system to an Open Source one would cost huge amounts. From robin.paulson at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 18:02:03 2009 From: robin.paulson at gmail.com (Robin Paulson) Date: Tue Jul 7 18:02:12 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] G2009 In-Reply-To: <4A529DCA.7060605@clad.co.nz> References: <4A52923F.8070403@clad.co.nz> <4A529DCA.7060605@clad.co.nz> Message-ID: <2f3aa2770907062302u499b2d78l71736e051868cfb@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/7 : > Some use more specialised software which does need to be upgraded. the problem around this idea is that 'upgrade = better'. this is so ingrained into the thinking of users and i would suggest some suppliers, supporters and procurers that it's never questioned. does machine x need to be upgraded? can we show there will be benefits which outweigh the costs? maybe, but maybe not. i use autodesk software, and they're bastards for pushing people into the continuous upgrade cycle. the way things are priced, bundled and designed, it's very difficult to get out of that cycle and still have software that's useful. this causes huge problems with upgrades breaking stuff, and costs more than most cad shops want to pay. in the end, most do it to save the hassle, regardless of whether they need it or not. and this is a direct result of the proprietary software + associated controlling methods that the likes of apple, autodesk and microsoft trade in From boxen_foxen at maddaz.com Tue Jul 7 19:40:29 2009 From: boxen_foxen at maddaz.com (Boxen Foxen) Date: Tue Jul 7 19:40:38 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <862861130907070040y2c6978e4i1b16111d5776f957@mail.gmail.com> > > > So, what are people using in this LUG? What is a "good distro" for a user > > and can we do better for a newb that "just install linux"? > > To answer your first question, I'm using Arch Linux. > To answer your second question, Arch Linux. > http://www.archlinux.org/ I agree, but I feel that Arch just might be too esoteric for some, especially those on the path-of-enlightenment or the sick-of-malware migration from WIN to GNU/Linux. That said, there was an excellent tutorial I read a few years ago whereby a Linux SysAdmin taught a class of elderly persons Linux using the CLI (that's Command Line Interface) for you GUI-kings. So something like Arch is doable for a newb but they might need some hand-holding. In my RedHat 7.2/7.3/9.0 learning curve, it was frustrating to install Linux but have it not boot or Start X and of course, if it does not start how do you ask for help? And so on ... Comments? From boxen_foxen at maddaz.com Tue Jul 7 19:50:38 2009 From: boxen_foxen at maddaz.com (Boxen Foxen) Date: Tue Jul 7 19:51:10 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux In Schools In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <862861130907070050v1d9d1cb5if9c28399c5a8c73d@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:49 AM, Nevyn wrote: > Hi Guys, > > One of things I was going to talk about was the idea of Linux in schools. > > The idea is to have computers that we could donate to schools with > Linux on them. Jaco and I have been talking about this on very general > terms. > > This hasn't be discussed, but for my money, I'd like to be able to get > a lab full of computers for a high school. This would essentially be a > pilot programme to show that it can be done, can be productive, and > can be done by people in the community. There would have to be several > parts to this. Firstly we'd need an umbrella to put these efforts into > this. Secondly, we'd need to find ways of fund raising in order to > find the funds to be able to buy computers. Thirdly, we'd need a > school to who'd be willing to participate. We'd need to be able to > source computers/components. And finally, my end game, we'd need a > register of capable Linux technicians. I say this is my end game in > that I believe this would help create OSS jobs. I'll say a bit more > about this in my next email. > > In terms of fund raising, I was thinking that there's a sort of > harmony to the idea of making some money via certifying. If we were to > hold some sort of workshop, and ask for donations, for LPIC training > (exams would have to be done under your own steam as you have to be > accredited to be able to administer the exam) we would be helping to > certify people in an industry that we're trying to promote. There's a > sort of poetic justice in educating while aiming to educate.... > > Grays Online often have ex-lease machines which go fairly cheaply > (I've brought several of these machines - they're rocking for the > price you can pick 'em up at) but lack monitor / keyboard and mouse. > Keyboard and mouse I'm not seeing as too big an issue, but monitors > are still fairly expensive so we need ideas on where we could get > monitors cheaply. > > We'll be posting about this on NZLUG and NZOSS some time fairly soon > just to make sure we're not duplicating our efforts. > > Regards, > Nevyn. Great post! I think that if you are looking for cheap and perhaps slightly older monitors, ie CRT, then you should try the primary CRT recycler for Auckland, possibly New Zealand. RCN & Associates => http://www.rcn.co.nz Located on the North Shore, so not too far away. I'd contact them on behalf of AuckLUG but are down south atm, let me know if you would like a hand. I am not sure but I think that a lot of the 13/15/17" CRTs they get are just plain dumped or donated via community collection, therefore there should be no or minimal cost to acquire. However if part of an ongoing OSS project for schools, maybe they would sponsor you. You can only ask. Cheers BF. From boxen_foxen at maddaz.com Tue Jul 7 20:03:56 2009 From: boxen_foxen at maddaz.com (Boxen Foxen) Date: Tue Jul 7 20:04:41 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] NZQA Courses... In-Reply-To: References: <0A58741B-F3FC-4731-9115-9052520AFC62@hrdnz.com> Message-ID: <862861130907070103k7881d7e1w124c45032fe2f56f@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Nevyn wrote: > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Stuart Mealor wrote: > > Following on from Nevyn's comment on linux in schools. > > > > It's largely the marketing machine and contractual tie-ins of MS Windows > OS > > that stops schools broadening their ICT curriculum :-( > > Let's be fair. Windows technicians are easier to find than Linux > technicians. Give a man a hammer and he sees every problem as a nail. > Seems so true of Windows. Anyway, the marketing machine is a big piece > of the puzzle but we've got to fit on a couple of different fronts. We > need to show 'em that support is available - technical as well as > offering resources. We need to show them that they can do more! for > less! (am I sounding like an informercial yet?). We need to iterate > the flexibility of the system (i.e. take this livecd home, try it on > your computer, copy it and share it with your friends etc. Give it to > your students and let them take it for test drive. If you're not > sharing it, you're not doing it right!). > > The creation of jobs in OSS should have a cascading effect. If we've > offered a screw driver as well, then the OSes can go head to head on > merit in the future rather than schools being an MS factory. > > Regards, > Nevyn. LiveCD's rock! My 5 year old Knoppix is still the ducks guts for messing on a strange or temp access machine. Have also played with and made my own custom SlaxCD, which would be a good type of tool to intro Linux into a WIN dominant work place, LAN/WAN or home without fear of hardware/software destruction. The dominance of WIN/MAC is owed exclusively to a global, coordinated and proactive marketing campaign ... nothing more. While clearly the OSS community and the various O/Ses by their nature have lead to a decentralised technology campaign, marketing of Linux is doable. The caveat is that unless someone wants to underwrite a campaign (ie FSF, Linux.org, Canonical etc) the market penetration of Linux will be project by project, CPU by CPU. I know a few SysAdmins of .edu LANs in Australia who would open source in a heartbeat, unfortunately they do not have the authority nor power to alter departmental or even regional schools IT policy. It would take a brave Linux SysAdmin in an .edu and strong support from a Principal to even allow a small project ... but there must be one out there somewhere! Cheers, BF. From james.carroll at xnet.co.nz Tue Jul 7 20:07:06 2009 From: james.carroll at xnet.co.nz (James Carroll) Date: Tue Jul 7 20:07:33 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Linux In Schools In-Reply-To: <862861130907070050v1d9d1cb5if9c28399c5a8c73d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090707080724.B5BC91DB8223@titania.wxnz.net> On 07/07/09, Boxen Foxen wrote: > Great post! > I think that if you are looking for cheap and perhaps slightly older > monitors, ie CRT, then you should try the primary CRT recycler for > Auckland, possibly New Zealand. > RCN & Associates => http://www.rcn.co.nz > Located on the North Shore, so not too far away. I'd contact them on behalf > of AuckLUG but are down south atm, let me know if you would like a hand. > I am not sure but I think that a lot of the 13/15/17" CRTs they get are > just plain dumped or donated via community collection, therefore there > should be no or minimal cost to acquire. However if part of an ongoing OSS > project for schools, maybe they would sponsor you. You can only ask. I havent run this by my boss yet, but I do volunteer work for a charity organisation called St Vincent De Paul, and we have roughly 10 various 14" and 15" monitors. As far as I know, they work. We're going to sort out the best ones, for giving away to familys or whatever that need them. But we're also going to dump roughly half of them in the near future. They're organising a rubbish skip to be delievered soon... so, does anyone need a monitor? If so, I'll see what I can do. From tich at clad.co.nz Tue Jul 7 21:00:37 2009 From: tich at clad.co.nz (tich@clad.co.nz) Date: Tue Jul 7 21:00:47 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] G2009 In-Reply-To: <2f3aa2770907062302u499b2d78l71736e051868cfb@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A52923F.8070403@clad.co.nz> <4A529DCA.7060605@clad.co.nz> <2f3aa2770907062302u499b2d78l71736e051868cfb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A530EB5.4070803@clad.co.nz> Robin Paulson wrote: > 2009/7/7 : > >> Some use more specialised software which does need to be upgraded. >> > > the problem around this idea is that 'upgrade = better'. this is so > ingrained into the thinking of users and i would suggest some > suppliers, supporters and procurers that it's never questioned. does > machine x need to be upgraded? can we show there will be benefits > which outweigh the costs? maybe, but maybe not. > > i use autodesk software, and they're bastards for pushing people into > the continuous upgrade cycle. the way things are priced, bundled and > designed, it's very difficult to get out of that cycle and still have > software that's useful. this causes huge problems with upgrades > breaking stuff, and costs more than most cad shops want to pay. in the > end, most do it to save the hassle, regardless of whether they need it > or not. and this is a direct result of the proprietary software + > associated controlling methods that the likes of apple, autodesk and > microsoft trade in > > Yes, some "upgrades" are like that but others produce tangible benefits by introducing new technology in both hardware and software - introduction of sms to telemetry systems and better reporting on the software side for instance. From robin.paulson at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 22:11:41 2009 From: robin.paulson at gmail.com (Robin Paulson) Date: Tue Jul 7 22:11:50 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] G2009 In-Reply-To: <4A530EB5.4070803@clad.co.nz> References: <4A52923F.8070403@clad.co.nz> <4A529DCA.7060605@clad.co.nz> <2f3aa2770907062302u499b2d78l71736e051868cfb@mail.gmail.com> <4A530EB5.4070803@clad.co.nz> Message-ID: <2f3aa2770907070311n6fb10841xc7fadc5fa0b0cf3c@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/7 : > Yes, some "upgrades" are like that but others produce tangible benefits > by introducing new technology in both hardware and software - > introduction of sms to telemetry systems and better reporting on the > software side for instance. oh, i don't doubt it - i'm sure there are many cases where upgrades are worth having. i'd totally agree. it's the without-thought mentality of 'upgrade is better' coupled with vendors forcing users into upgrades that i have a problem with From kiirani at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 23:17:46 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Tue Jul 7 23:18:01 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: <862861130907070040y2c6978e4i1b16111d5776f957@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> <862861130907070040y2c6978e4i1b16111d5776f957@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2494ad260907070417r4f10948r9b03fe6b34146f48@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/7 Boxen Foxen : >> >> > So, what are people using in this LUG? What is a "good distro" for a user >> > and can we do better for a newb that "just install linux"? >> >> To answer your first question, I'm using Arch Linux. >> To answer your second question, Arch Linux. >> http://www.archlinux.org/ > > > I agree, but I feel that Arch just might be too esoteric for some, > especially those on the path-of-enlightenment or the sick-of-malware > migration from WIN to GNU/Linux. OH my.. I've just reread your original question a few times, and realised my dozey brain misread it the first time... Somehow, I turned "and can we do better" into "who can do better". Urk! All this time I thought we were talking about distributions suitable for the more skilled breed of newbie... Can I change my answer to 'ubuntu', or is it too late? :\ I'm still interested in a distribution which builds strong hardware detection and easy, powerful gui tools ontop of a clean, power user type base... Something that you can really easily take apart as you gain skill, but don't necessarily have to. I don't really feel like the classic newbie distributions provide that, but then, I was dumped onto gentoo as a newbie, so I may have been spoilt. From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 23:23:03 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 7 23:23:11 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: <862861130907070040y2c6978e4i1b16111d5776f957@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> <862861130907070040y2c6978e4i1b16111d5776f957@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 7:40 PM, Boxen Foxen wrote: > > I agree, but I feel that Arch just might be too esoteric for some, > especially those on the path-of-enlightenment or the sick-of-malware > migration from WIN to GNU/Linux. > > That said, there was an excellent tutorial I read a few years ago whereby a > Linux SysAdmin taught a class of elderly persons Linux using the CLI (that's > Command Line Interface) for you GUI-kings. > > So something like Arch is doable for a newb but they might need some > hand-holding. > > In my RedHat 7.2/7.3/9.0 learning curve, it was frustrating to install Linux > but have it not boot or Start X and of course, if it does not start how do > you ask for help? And so on ... > > Comments? I've always found that support via cli is easier than via the gui. Being able tell someone to type "sudo apt-get install whatever" at a CLI is easier than telling them to click somewhere on the screen and describing where that somewhere is etc. However, I don't see any entry point stopping this. I think Ubuntu does approach the initial problems well in that getting hardware to work can be a mission but thankfully there are some very cool tools out there which are getting better and better of taking care of it. Users then have the choice of if they want to go further or if they're happy doing the same old things that they did in Windows in Linux. Regards, Nevyn. From kiirani at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 23:33:24 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Tue Jul 7 23:33:54 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> <862861130907070040y2c6978e4i1b16111d5776f957@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2494ad260907070433u5392dae1mbce645fbfc044580@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/7 Nevyn : > I've always found that support via cli is easier than via the gui. > Being able tell someone to type "sudo apt-get install whatever" at a > CLI is easier than telling them to click somewhere on the screen and > describing where that somewhere is etc. However, I don't see any entry > point stopping this. I think Ubuntu does approach the initial problems > well in that getting hardware to work can be a mission but thankfully > there are some very cool tools out there which are getting better and > better of taking care of it. > > Users then have the choice of if they want to go further or if they're > happy doing the same old things that they did in Windows in Linux. Do you think that perhaps people could be introduced to cli in a somewhat backwards fashion, by first introducing the idea that any program can be launched just by typing its name into the run box? (as this will be a new concept to windows users) It might help commands cease to be a string of arbitrary letters and symbols for computer whizzes only, and start to be a meaningful way of controlling your system... From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 23:37:42 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 7 23:38:25 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux In Schools In-Reply-To: <862861130907070050v1d9d1cb5if9c28399c5a8c73d@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907070050v1d9d1cb5if9c28399c5a8c73d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Boxen Foxen wrote: > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:49 AM, Nevyn wrote: > >> Hi Guys, >> >> One of things I was going to talk about was the idea of Linux in schools. >> >> The idea is to have computers that we could donate to schools with >> Linux on them. Jaco and I have been talking about this on very general >> terms. >> >> This hasn't be discussed, but for my money, I'd like to be able to get >> a lab full of computers for a high school. This would essentially be a >> pilot programme to show that it can be done, can be productive, and >> can be done by people in the community. There would have to be several >> parts to this. Firstly we'd need an umbrella to put these efforts into >> this. Secondly, we'd need to find ways of fund raising in order to >> find the funds to be able to buy computers. Thirdly, we'd need a >> school to who'd be willing to participate. We'd need to be able to >> source computers/components. And finally, my end game, we'd need a >> register of capable Linux technicians. I say this is my end game in >> that I believe this would help create OSS jobs. I'll say a bit more >> about this in my next email. >> >> In terms of fund raising, I was thinking that there's a sort of >> harmony to the idea of making some money via certifying. If we were to >> hold some sort of workshop, and ask for donations, for LPIC training >> (exams would have to be done under your own steam as you have to be >> accredited to be able to administer the exam) we would be helping to >> certify people in an industry that we're trying to promote. There's a >> sort of poetic justice in educating while aiming to educate.... >> >> Grays Online often have ex-lease machines which go fairly cheaply >> (I've brought several of these machines - they're rocking for the >> price you can pick 'em up at) but lack monitor / keyboard and mouse. >> Keyboard and mouse I'm not seeing as too big an issue, but monitors >> are still fairly expensive so we need ideas on where we could get >> monitors cheaply. >> >> We'll be posting about this on NZLUG and NZOSS some time fairly soon >> just to make sure we're not duplicating our efforts. >> >> Regards, >> Nevyn. > > > Great post! > > I think that if you are looking for cheap and perhaps slightly older > monitors, ie CRT, then you should try the primary CRT recycler for Auckland, > possibly New Zealand. > > RCN & Associates => http://www.rcn.co.nz > > Located on the North Shore, so not too far away. I'd contact them on behalf > of AuckLUG but are down south atm, let me know if you would like a hand. > > I am not sure but I think that a lot of the 13/15/17" CRTs they get are just > plain dumped or donated via community collection, therefore there should be > no or minimal cost to acquire. However if part of an ongoing OSS project for > schools, maybe they would sponsor you. You can only ask. > > Cheers BF. Where is the infighting? The resistance? Anyone? Perhaps a distro war? It seems we're on the right road. Unfortunately, I can't really start collecting hardware myself just yet (I'm hopefully moving as soon as I've got a new job and so collecting hardware now would just cause issues. Also, I don't drive so collection may be a challenge). I'm giving myself until early next year as a deadline so we've got plenty of time to do this sort of thing. What I would really like to discuss is approaches. Do we approach a school, selected randomly or pick a criteria? My personal feeling is that secondary schools will get more out of Linux. What should the proposal say and be worded and how far are we willing to go i.e. whole lab in one school, one or two computers in a bunch of schools etc. How do we handle support?... so many questions, and loads of time to try and get it right. Regards, Nevyn. From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 23:44:26 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 7 23:44:55 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: <2494ad260907070433u5392dae1mbce645fbfc044580@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> <862861130907070040y2c6978e4i1b16111d5776f957@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907070433u5392dae1mbce645fbfc044580@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Kennedy Skelton wrote: > > Do you think that perhaps people could be introduced to cli in a > somewhat backwards fashion, by first introducing the idea that any > program can be launched just by typing its name into the run box? (as > this will be a new concept to windows users) > > It might help commands cease to be a string of arbitrary letters and > symbols for computer whizzes only, and start to be a meaningful way of > controlling your system... There's a thought. I've never tried going that way - people do seem to so like the mouse. I guess we should ask Kevin about the cli approach - it's what I used with him. I was trying to use my vagueness as a teaching tool at some point. i.e. you've demonstrated sudo previously so if you give them an instruction without it, the user should hopefully see an error message, be able to figure it out and know to add sudo to the front. Doesn't always work but hopefully after a couple of times they'll recognise the error message. Of course, this all depends on the individual user. If they're wired that way... With my mum, I've found myself getting grumpy with her. I have to step her through absolutely everything. i.e. open up browser, log into email (gmail), here's how to search etc. She doesn't seem to be learning - she's not learning patterns and even worse, lacks the confidence to just go ahead and do anything with her machine. I'm not sure I'm really made for support. Regards, Nevyn. From candle.man.nz at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 23:57:20 2009 From: candle.man.nz at gmail.com (Kevin Adams) Date: Tue Jul 7 23:57:28 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> <862861130907070040y2c6978e4i1b16111d5776f957@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907070433u5392dae1mbce645fbfc044580@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5b6001920907070457u7930c89em1f7fbfe1bcce16dd@mail.gmail.com> Hi Nevyn, As you are aware after the CLI approach was successful, I looked for the appropriate GUI approach that would handle my so called problem and have now been using PCLOS for a month without touching the konsole. It has a better way of handling things (for me) than ubuntu and I would recommend it to other newbies who are not wanting to be in the IT field. Except perhaps for it's sound wizard, but you know about that too. Some of the things we did are done by wizards, you can see it using the konsole for you. Kevin 2009/7/7 Nevyn > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Kennedy Skelton wrote: > > > > Do you think that perhaps people could be introduced to cli in a > > somewhat backwards fashion, by first introducing the idea that any > > program can be launched just by typing its name into the run box? (as > > this will be a new concept to windows users) > > > > It might help commands cease to be a string of arbitrary letters and > > symbols for computer whizzes only, and start to be a meaningful way of > > controlling your system... > > There's a thought. I've never tried going that way - people do seem to > so like the mouse. I guess we should ask Kevin about the cli approach > - it's what I used with him. I was trying to use my vagueness as a > teaching tool at some point. i.e. you've demonstrated sudo previously > so if you give them an instruction without it, the user should > hopefully see an error message, be able to figure it out and know to > add sudo to the front. Doesn't always work but hopefully after a > couple of times they'll recognise the error message. Of course, this > all depends on the individual user. If they're wired that way... > > With my mum, I've found myself getting grumpy with her. I have to step > her through absolutely everything. i.e. open up browser, log into > email (gmail), here's how to search etc. She doesn't seem to be > learning - she's not learning patterns and even worse, lacks the > confidence to just go ahead and do anything with her machine. I'm not > sure I'm really made for support. > > Regards, > Nevyn. > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From robin.paulson at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 23:58:48 2009 From: robin.paulson at gmail.com (Robin Paulson) Date: Tue Jul 7 23:58:55 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> <862861130907070040y2c6978e4i1b16111d5776f957@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907070433u5392dae1mbce645fbfc044580@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f3aa2770907070458o3ddcfbe3wa56c9708eb968d87@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/7 Nevyn : > There's a thought. I've never tried going that way - people do seem to > so like the mouse. I guess we should ask Kevin about the cli approach > - it's what I used with him. I was trying to use my vagueness as a > teaching tool at some point. i.e. you've demonstrated sudo previously > so if you give them an instruction without it, the user should > hopefully see an error message, be able to figure it out and know to > add sudo to the front. Doesn't always work but hopefully after a > couple of times they'll recognise the error message. Of course, this > all depends on the individual user. If they're wired that way... > > With my mum, I've found myself getting grumpy with her. I have to step > her through absolutely everything. i.e. open up browser, log into > email (gmail), here's how to search etc. She doesn't seem to be > learning - she's not learning patterns and even worse, lacks the > confidence to just go ahead and do anything with her machine. I'm not > sure I'm really made for support. i'm similarly grumpy when it comes to teaching nevyn, i know how you feel. i spent a lot of time recently teaching my 60 year-old boss, who previously was pretty close to computer-illiterate, how to use a complex piece of 3d modelling software used in the construction industry. this will sound counter-intuitive, but i realised the best way to teach people to learn, rather than repeating a set of actions, is to encourage them to think what they want to do, and how it might be done. each time we came to a new item, i'd force him to stop, think about what he wanted, and get him to break each thing down into small steps. i very rarely told/showed him how to do anything. yes, it was frustrating and painful for him and me, but very quickly he learned how to do new stuff - i didn't need to be there constantly, and he figured out how to work out new things without my input the great thing was, he started applying it not just to the software he was learning, but other software as well, without me explaining the ideas to him. i think a big part of it is teaching people to be curious, that they can't do any serious damage, and to try everything in front of them till they work it out From nevynh at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 00:01:52 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Wed Jul 8 00:01:59 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] NZQA Courses... In-Reply-To: <862861130907070103k7881d7e1w124c45032fe2f56f@mail.gmail.com> References: <0A58741B-F3FC-4731-9115-9052520AFC62@hrdnz.com> <862861130907070103k7881d7e1w124c45032fe2f56f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 8:03 PM, Boxen Foxen wrote: > > The dominance of WIN/MAC is owed exclusively to a global, coordinated and > proactive marketing campaign ... nothing more. While clearly the OSS > community and the various O/Ses by their nature have lead to a decentralised > technology campaign, marketing of Linux is doable. The caveat is that unless > someone wants to underwrite a campaign (ie FSF, Linux.org, Canonical etc) > the market penetration of Linux will be project by project, CPU by CPU. > > I know a few SysAdmins of .edu LANs in Australia who would open source in a > heartbeat, unfortunately they do not have the authority nor power to alter > departmental or even regional schools IT policy. > > It would take a brave Linux SysAdmin in an .edu and strong support from a > Principal to even allow a small project ... but there must be one out there > somewhere! > > Cheers, BF. Project by project, CPU by CPU isn't too big a task really. It's a matter of building momentum. First, you'd have to prove it to them. So one project. The difference between a pilot project and what that school in ... Albany is it? ... has done would be that we wouldn't be starting from a blank environment. We'd be working to integrate any Linux machines into their existing environment (I anticipate this being mainly a couple of samba mounts and some work around printers) and thus showing that we can implement a classroom full of Linux machines and provide and prove the benefits of Linux over the other operating systems. Secondly, after having proven it can be done, we'd need to be able to show other parties the same thing. i.e. we went into X school and put in N number of computers and integrated into their existing environment, we had these problems but know how to work around them now. This is where we'd need to start thinking about pricing. i.e. the pilot is funded by us, and we've donated machines to get it done. Perhaps the first few could be a nominal amount. i.e. give us $5,000, we'll see what we can get done with that amount, and perhaps do a fund raiser within the school to get the rest of the funds needed to finish the project. Finally, we should have a couple of examples of what can be done, and should have a good idea of the costs involved. So we are able to say we can offer you this functionality (IDE, internet access, better file permission control, collaboration software, free cd's etc.) and here's the price (perhaps a cost per machine plus training etc.). So what we really need, is an umbrella organisation. Something that can be a business. The umbrella organisation, initially donating computers, would be essentially underwriting the first deployment. After that, we should have momentum enough to get a second school interested... Regards, Nevyn. From stuart at hrdnz.com Wed Jul 8 08:23:50 2009 From: stuart at hrdnz.com (Stuart Mealor) Date: Wed Jul 8 08:24:21 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] NZQA Courses... Message-ID: <44A7DAB9-B716-46D9-ABB0-64143D7EC415@hrdnz.com> Well, there are schools even in New Zealand that are moving to open source. Others are migrating away from MS Office to Google Docs for example (whether you agree that is smart or not). Did you know schools who get discounts on MS products are specifically told they cannot install Open Office for example? I believe this is actually written in contracts - but I don't have this evidence. MS being used in schools is about far more than the IT skills of the technicians Nevyn, it's 'business' - and that is way more powerful ;-) From bob.harvey at work.net.nz Wed Jul 8 08:30:00 2009 From: bob.harvey at work.net.nz (Bob Harvey) Date: Wed Jul 8 08:30:58 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Fair use (Nevyn) Message-ID: <6vptfo$5taild@smtp.mailfilter1.ihug.co.nz> Hi Nevyn, you said... >>> I know, I'm splitting hairs, but it's at the extremes that you see the more interesting stuff happen. >>> Exactly. Which is why the establishment of some general principles might help the courts to unravel these sort of issues as they arise, rather than requiring legislators to anticipate every potential development of technology. And at very least, formal provision of the concept of 'fair use' would be a good start. Cheers, Bob. From leon at lost.co.nz Wed Jul 8 10:43:00 2009 From: leon at lost.co.nz (Leon Matthews) Date: Wed Jul 8 10:43:13 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Labour's Copyright Forum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A53CF74.6060800@lost.co.nz> Nevyn wrote: > My criteria being: > * Natural Justice must be observed. > * The tax payer should not have to pay for the rights of a private > entity (i.e. the copyright holder). > * ISP's should not be asked to be responsible It sounds like you're already extremely well prepared... :-) I think the TED Talk on Copyright Law that Larry Lessig did last year should be compulsory viewing, especially the parts about natural justice and the importance of not making the law as ass to be ignored. It's entertaining, only 20 minutes long -- and compulsory viewing at my company. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q25-S7jzgs Good luck for tonight Nevyn. Cheers, Leon -- Leon Matthews BSc Technical Director, Messiah Ltd. messiah.co.nz | 0800 MESSIAH From nevynh at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 11:55:36 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Wed Jul 8 11:56:44 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] NZQA Courses... In-Reply-To: <44A7DAB9-B716-46D9-ABB0-64143D7EC415@hrdnz.com> References: <44A7DAB9-B716-46D9-ABB0-64143D7EC415@hrdnz.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Stuart Mealor wrote: > Well, there are schools even in New Zealand that are moving to open source. > Others are migrating away from MS Office to Google Docs for example (whether > you agree that is smart or not). > > Did you know schools who get discounts on MS products are specifically told > they cannot install Open Office for example? > I believe this is actually written in contracts - but I don't have this > evidence. > > MS being used in schools is about far more than the IT skills of the > technicians Nevyn, it's 'business' - and that is way more powerful ;-) The key point here is that we're tackling these sorts of contracts. Here's a system which is flexible, which will enable you to do everything you could do before but will also enable you to do all sorts of other things. You can give it to your students to take home with absolutely no legal issues. The only contract to worry about is a support contract. Back to grass roots... From lilypatch at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 21:22:20 2009 From: lilypatch at gmail.com (David Bowen) Date: Wed Jul 8 21:22:35 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Quick Poll re GNU/Linux Versions In-Reply-To: <5b6001920907070457u7930c89em1f7fbfe1bcce16dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907051223p324d6152n699db7897d4b277c@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907051459g2aea2990g425c4798824039c1@mail.gmail.com> <862861130907070040y2c6978e4i1b16111d5776f957@mail.gmail.com> <2494ad260907070433u5392dae1mbce645fbfc044580@mail.gmail.com> <5b6001920907070457u7930c89em1f7fbfe1bcce16dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A54654C.2020702@gmail.com> At the end of the day it depends on the user. Do they want to just use the computer to get a job done? For them something like Ubuntu is good, It mostly just works. For those that want to learn more, how to tinker with the nuts and bolts, let them loose on Arch. That is the great thing about all the different distro's out there, There is one for ever niche. I know where you are coming from Nevyn, Although my mother uses XP, My sister mostly manges it. I did manage to tell her how to remove a nagging net nanny program that was threatening to block her net access if she did did not update it. (Microsoft program I think) without much drama. Not bad for almost 80, and Dad took over everything until he had stroke. She found out she could do all this stuff after all! David > Hi Nevyn, > > As you are aware after the CLI approach was successful, I looked for the > appropriate GUI approach that would handle my so called problem and have now > been using PCLOS for a month without touching the konsole. It has a better > way of handling things (for me) than ubuntu and I would recommend it to > other newbies who are not wanting to be in the IT field. Except perhaps for > it's sound wizard, but you know about that too. Some of the things we did > are done by wizards, you can see it using the konsole for you. > > Kevin > > 2009/7/7 Nevyn > > >> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Kennedy Skelton wrote: >> >>> Do you think that perhaps people could be introduced to cli in a >>> somewhat backwards fashion, by first introducing the idea that any >>> program can be launched just by typing its name into the run box? (as >>> this will be a new concept to windows users) >>> >>> It might help commands cease to be a string of arbitrary letters and >>> symbols for computer whizzes only, and start to be a meaningful way of >>> controlling your system... >>> >> There's a thought. I've never tried going that way - people do seem to >> so like the mouse. I guess we should ask Kevin about the cli approach >> - it's what I used with him. I was trying to use my vagueness as a >> teaching tool at some point. i.e. you've demonstrated sudo previously >> so if you give them an instruction without it, the user should >> hopefully see an error message, be able to figure it out and know to >> add sudo to the front. Doesn't always work but hopefully after a >> couple of times they'll recognise the error message. Of course, this >> all depends on the individual user. If they're wired that way... >> >> With my mum, I've found myself getting grumpy with her. I have to step >> her through absolutely everything. i.e. open up browser, log into >> email (gmail), here's how to search etc. She doesn't seem to be >> learning - she's not learning patterns and even worse, lacks the >> confidence to just go ahead and do anything with her machine. I'm not >> sure I'm really made for support. >> >> Regards, >> Nevyn. >> >> >> From nevynh at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 01:58:20 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Thu Jul 9 01:58:32 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Copyright Forum Message-ID: Hi Guys, As I had said I was attending the copyright forum tonight. I got there and it was a good start - pizza on the tables (but no beer). There were around 25 people there representing various industries. On the Open Source side of things there was 2 people from Creative Commons, 2 from NZOSS and 2 from AuckLUG (myself and Martin). The rest were made up of various groups - Vodaphone were there (2 more as well as Martin), a few ISP related guys, various representatives from various industries such as music and print. I don't think there was anyone from the movie industry but then their interests coincide with the other industries anyway. I stayed quiet for the most part except for right at the beginning when we went around the room introducing ourselves. I got the dry horrors and stumbled over my words. Anyway, it was a very constructive conversation but I am still at a loss as to what to take away from it. Both sides represented themselves well, the conversation civil. The only outcry seemed to happen when a guy from United Video came up with a figure. United Video (which also own the Civic Video, Dymocks and Mr Rental brands) apparently lost $80,000,000 last year due to piracy. The general outcry was "where did the figures come from?" followed by "if we could see how these figures were derived...". Clare Curren had a bunch of other figures from 2005 which were along the same sort of lines. One person also said that some such figures in Canada had been debunked as pulled out of the air. Probably the most interesting perspective came from the publishing industry where it was stated that copyright effects print worse than music on the basis that people who've pirated a book (pdf or whatever) don't have the further income from concerts and are unlikely to buy the book (I have read a book which I downloaded and gone out and brought it soon later but that's just me and it was because the availability of the book was horrendous). The point was brought up that piracy with music could potentially help the industry. Of course, the guys representing music labels did say that it wasn't a matter of what was good for the industry so much as the rights of the copyright holder to control that content. Martin or Vik (I can't remember which) brought up the justification for copyright argument - which sort of fell on deaf ears. Clare Cullen had listed what she felt to be the fundamentals of copyright and had trouble reconciling the justification for copyright from her own views of the fundamentals. These were (I may have the wording wrong here as I'm working off Cliff notes which had one or two words for each point): The importance of the creator to control. The importance of enabling and encouraging the user to seek information The importance of enabling innovation The importance of fair process The importance of fair use And the justification argument: That copyright was created in order to encourage the author to continue creating works. It's not a mechanism for profits and the distinction should be made. If the money isn't getting back to the artist, it's not fulfilling it's intention nor is the copyright existing past the lifetime of the creator of that work. S92 was talked about briefly - the forum wasn't really about S92 but more around the idea that something has to be done and so what should that something be. S92 was meant to address the problem on a small scale. Given that a copyright infringement may just be a single song where the profits could be around $1.79 (not sure where that figure came from - the air seems to hold a fair few) per song, then prosecuting on the offence is impractical so S92 was essentially a really bad attempt at cheap "justice" due to cheap offences by doing away with the justice part of it. It was interesting to note that no one around the table thought that S92's way of dealing with things was acceptable. That problem was termed the "death by a thousand cuts". i.e. one offence really isn't gong to make that much of a difference but the problem does escalate. And then things took a turn into a direction which had me sitting, mouth open, shocked... They were trying to come up with a way of figuring out the ones who were offending repeatedly. As far as I'm concerned, this is for the individual labels or whatever to figure out but they were talking about the large downloaders. So if you're a heavy user of the internet - given that it can be next to impossible and made to be impossible to figure out what someone is doing on the internet based solely on their traffic - you could potentially be flagged because you use a certain amount of bandwidth. The CC guys used Weta as an example whose core business requires heavy transfers as a counter argument. I'm sitting there thinking I'd be stuffed if I was doing Linux reviews - download a cd/dvd at a time and give it a go as each new release comes out.... It's bad enough that we're put down to dial up speeds if we exceed a certain amount of traffic. Anyway, as the night wore on, we came to conclusions.... it had been a pleasant chat and Clare asked everyone, "so to summarize?". Silence... Tumbleweed almost appeared out of nowhere. Discussion started up again which was around education. i.e. legal sites should make it perfectly clear when something is legal so that people can make a more informed choice. It was at this point that I could imagine Clare rolling her eyes (she did well not to) - "so to summarize, education is important" - which she had also started the night with. Anyway, Clare was a gracious host - pizza and a few soft drinks. Greeted everyone at the door and thanked everyone for their attendance individually afterwards. She had good balance of both sides of the argument and stepped in only when necessary i.e. "Can we avoid private conversations" after things "erupted" during the figures debate (at the same time a couple of people were also talking about the Google books copyright settlement which effects a lot of NZ authors - they could potentially get $60 from Google Books!) and wrapping things up. All in all, it would be hard not to respect her. Regards, Nevyn. From g.kloss at massey.ac.nz Thu Jul 9 07:56:28 2009 From: g.kloss at massey.ac.nz (Guy K. Kloss) Date: Thu Jul 9 07:56:41 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Copyright Forum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200907090756.28146.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> Thanks for the wrapup, Nevyn. Much appreciated! Guy -- Guy K. Kloss Institute of Information and Mathematical Sciences Te Kura P?taiao o M?hiohio me P?ngarau Massey University, Albany (North Shore City, Auckland) 473 State Highway 17, Gate 1, Mailroom, Quad B Building voice: +64 9 414-0800 ext. 9585 fax: +64 9 441-8181 G.Kloss@massey.ac.nz http://www.massey.ac.nz/~gkloss From aucklug at holloway.co.nz Thu Jul 9 16:58:07 2009 From: aucklug at holloway.co.nz (Matthew Holloway) Date: Thu Jul 9 16:59:19 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Copyright Forum Message-ID: Nevyn wrote: > On the Open Source side of things there was > 2 people from Creative Commons, A correction here, we're from the Creative Freedom Foundation http://www.CreativeFreedom.org.nz/ who aren't related to Creative Commons (although we're very supportive of them, we license all our material under CC and promote the approach). Just to give a background, I myself write FOSS software such as http://docvert.org/ and PilferPage http://holloway.co.nz/pilferpage/ . I was involved in that Microsoft OOXML mess too (ugh). As Nevyn says the meeting wasn't particularly focused on s92A - it was more about long term discussions that might influence the Labour policy on Copyright. For those following s92A the CFF are waiting on an update from MED that was due a few days ago. It looks like it'll come out next week now. You can read about the review process here: http://creativefreedom.org.nz/story.html?id=300 Nevyn wrote: > > The only outcry seemed to happen when a guy from United Video came up > with a figure. United Video (which also own the Civic Video, Dymocks > and Mr Rental brands) apparently lost $80,000,000 last year due to > piracy. The general outcry was "where did the figures come from?" Often these studies consider one download to be one lost sale when clearly there's not a 1:1 ratio. I think it was Arthur Baysting (an APRA board member but not necessarily speaking for APRA in this instance) who reinforced that a 1:1 ratio was simply unrealistic. The IFPI, an international coalition of recording industry bodies, often claim that 10% of music downloads are lost sales. Personally I think that's a little optimistic (I don't buy every 10th song the radio). Nevyn wrote: > > followed by "if we could see how these figures were derived...". Clare > Curren had a bunch of other figures from 2005 which were along the > same sort of lines. ...along the same lines in that Clare's study was also a movie industry study, not an independent one. This shows the need for independent studies and it raises the obvious question: who's going to pay for them? Nevyn wrote: > > One person also said that some such figures in > Canada had been debunked as pulled out of the air. This was Bronwyn and the story she was talking about is here; titled "Piracy Numbers Based On Hunches, Not Actual Surveys" http://creativefreedom.org.nz/story.html?id=298 Nevyn wrote: > > And then things took a turn into a direction which had me sitting, > mouth open, shocked... > They were trying to come up with a way of figuring out the ones who > were offending repeatedly. As far as I'm concerned, this is for the > individual labels or whatever to figure out but they were talking > about the large downloaders. I took this more to be about responding to the myth that s92A is based upon, refuting the idea that tracking or identifying at the ISP (or even on the open internet) who chose to download what from who. I brought up Darknets and Tor as an example of how s92A-style laws based on the assumption of visibility will fail due to the technology arms-race going on. This then led into the argument that supporting artists won't be done through legal threats, and that we need more legal alternatives. We're now fifteen years into the popular mainstream internet and yet we can't get movies online, music still comes with DRM (Telecom XT network, see http://creativefreedom.org.nz/story.html?id=329 ), and large music distributors have pulled out of New Zealand due to licensing problems http://creativefreedom.org.nz/story.html?id=311 . Paying a small levy on internet connections was floated as an idea. I'm not so sure about a levy at the ISP level, and I'd much prefer for the fee to more competitors to iTunes (Eg, just as another resource online). There was also talk of an all-you-can-eat music/movies/tv store. Anyway, thanks for the writeup Nevyn! We'll be making one of our own in the coming days. It would have been good to talk to you but it seemed that afterwards everyone just headed off into the night rather than into a pub :) Clare has written her summary here: http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2009/07/08/one-of-those-magic-moments/ ...and Peter Harrison from the NZOSS has written one here too http://lists.nzoss.org.nz/pipermail/openchat/2009-July/002360.html -- .Matthew Holloway http://CreativeFreedom.org.nz/ http://holloway.co.nz/ From leon at lost.co.nz Fri Jul 10 08:10:09 2009 From: leon at lost.co.nz (Leon Matthews) Date: Fri Jul 10 08:10:21 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Copyright Forum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A564EA1.6050708@lost.co.nz> Nevyn wrote: > As I had said I was attending the copyright forum tonight. Great report Nevyn, a very interesting read. Cheers, Leon -- Leon Matthews BSc Technical Director, Messiah Ltd. messiah.co.nz | 0800 MESSIAH From nevynh at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 09:36:50 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Fri Jul 10 09:36:59 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Copyright Forum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 4:58 PM, Matthew Holloway wrote: > Nevyn wrote: > >> On the Open Source side of things there was >> 2 people from Creative Commons, > > A correction here, we're from the Creative Freedom Foundation > http://www.CreativeFreedom.org.nz/ who aren't related to Creative > Commons (although we're very supportive of them, we license all our > material under CC and promote the approach). > > Just to give a background, I myself write FOSS software such as > http://docvert.org/ and PilferPage http://holloway.co.nz/pilferpage/ . > ?I was involved in that Microsoft OOXML mess too (ugh). > > As Nevyn says the meeting wasn't particularly focused on s92A - it was > more about long term discussions that might influence the Labour > policy on Copyright. For those following s92A the CFF are waiting on > an update from MED that was due a few days ago. It looks like it'll > come out next week now. You can read about the review process here: > http://creativefreedom.org.nz/story.html?id=300 > > Nevyn wrote: >> >> The only outcry seemed to happen when a guy from United Video came up >> with a figure. United Video (which also own the Civic Video, Dymocks >> and Mr Rental brands) apparently lost $80,000,000 last year due to >> piracy. The general outcry was "where did the figures come from?" > > Often these studies consider one download to be one lost sale when > clearly there's not a 1:1 ratio. I think it was Arthur Baysting (an > APRA board member but not necessarily speaking for APRA in this > instance) who reinforced that a 1:1 ratio was simply unrealistic. > > The IFPI, an international coalition of recording industry bodies, > often claim that 10% of music downloads are lost sales. > > Personally I think that's a little optimistic (I don't buy every 10th > song the radio). > > > Nevyn wrote: >> >> followed by "if we could see how these figures were derived...". Clare >> Curren had a bunch of other figures from 2005 which were along the >> same sort of lines. > > ...along the same lines in that Clare's study was also a movie > industry study, not an independent one. > > This shows the need for independent studies and it raises the obvious > question: who's going to pay for them? > > > Nevyn wrote: >> >> One person also said that some such figures in >> Canada had been debunked as pulled out of the air. > > This was Bronwyn and the story she was talking about is here; > titled "Piracy Numbers Based On Hunches, Not Actual Surveys" > > http://creativefreedom.org.nz/story.html?id=298 > > Nevyn wrote: >> >> And then things took a turn into a direction which had me sitting, >> mouth open, shocked... >> They were trying to come up with a way of figuring out the ones who >> were offending repeatedly. As far as I'm concerned, this is for the >> individual labels or whatever to figure out but they were talking >> about the large downloaders. > > I took this more to be about responding to the myth that s92A is based > upon, refuting the idea that tracking or identifying at the ISP (or > even on the open internet) who chose to download what from who. I > brought up Darknets and Tor as an example of how s92A-style laws based > on the assumption of visibility will fail due to the technology > arms-race going on. > > This then led into the argument that supporting artists won't be done > through legal threats, and that we need more legal alternatives. > > We're now fifteen years into the popular mainstream internet and yet > we can't get movies online, music still comes with DRM (Telecom XT > network, ?see http://creativefreedom.org.nz/story.html?id=329 ), and > large music distributors have pulled out of New Zealand due to > licensing problems http://creativefreedom.org.nz/story.html?id=311 . > > Paying a small levy on internet connections was floated as an idea. > I'm not so sure about a levy at the ISP level, and I'd much prefer for > the fee to more competitors to iTunes (Eg, just as another resource > online). There was also talk of an all-you-can-eat music/movies/tv > store. > > Anyway, thanks for the writeup Nevyn! We'll be making one of our own > in the coming days. It would have been good to talk to you but it > seemed that afterwards everyone just headed off into the night rather > than into a pub :) > > Clare has written her summary here: > http://blog.labour.org.nz/index.php/2009/07/08/one-of-those-magic-moments/ > > ...and Peter Harrison from the NZOSS has written one here too > http://lists.nzoss.org.nz/pipermail/openchat/2009-July/002360.html > > -- > .Matthew Holloway > http://CreativeFreedom.org.nz/ > http://holloway.co.nz/ Hi Matthew, Thanks for the clear up of the CFF - I'll have a look more around this during the weekend. You guys seemed to be almost monolithic - I had heard Vik talking about you guys flying up from Wellington for he forum. My apologies for not talking - I tend to be very shy and find it easier to communicate from behind a computer monitor. Also, thanks for the link to the S92A review process. That was one of the first things that end up on my notes. Regards, Nevyn. From JHS at papakurahigh.school.nz Fri Jul 10 16:24:14 2009 From: JHS at papakurahigh.school.nz (JHS) Date: Fri Jul 10 16:26:54 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux In Schools References: <862861130907070050v1d9d1cb5if9c28399c5a8c73d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5228B58005AFA743A027937A4AC6075415CA8B@PHS-005.papakurahigh.school.nz> Hiya, There is already a high school in NZ using solely Linux. I can't remember then name off the top of my head but will check next time i'm in the office. There was an article in the education gazette outlining it. cheers, Mat. -----Original Message----- From: aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz on behalf of Nevyn Sent: Tue 07/07/2009 23:37 To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Linux In Schools On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Boxen Foxen wrote: > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:49 AM, Nevyn wrote: > >> Hi Guys, >> >> One of things I was going to talk about was the idea of Linux in schools. >> >> The idea is to have computers that we could donate to schools with >> Linux on them. Jaco and I have been talking about this on very general >> terms. >> >> This hasn't be discussed, but for my money, I'd like to be able to get >> a lab full of computers for a high school. This would essentially be a >> pilot programme to show that it can be done, can be productive, and >> can be done by people in the community. There would have to be several >> parts to this. Firstly we'd need an umbrella to put these efforts into >> this. Secondly, we'd need to find ways of fund raising in order to >> find the funds to be able to buy computers. Thirdly, we'd need a >> school to who'd be willing to participate. We'd need to be able to >> source computers/components. And finally, my end game, we'd need a >> register of capable Linux technicians. I say this is my end game in >> that I believe this would help create OSS jobs. I'll say a bit more >> about this in my next email. >> >> In terms of fund raising, I was thinking that there's a sort of >> harmony to the idea of making some money via certifying. If we were to >> hold some sort of workshop, and ask for donations, for LPIC training >> (exams would have to be done under your own steam as you have to be >> accredited to be able to administer the exam) we would be helping to >> certify people in an industry that we're trying to promote. There's a >> sort of poetic justice in educating while aiming to educate.... >> >> Grays Online often have ex-lease machines which go fairly cheaply >> (I've brought several of these machines - they're rocking for the >> price you can pick 'em up at) but lack monitor / keyboard and mouse. >> Keyboard and mouse I'm not seeing as too big an issue, but monitors >> are still fairly expensive so we need ideas on where we could get >> monitors cheaply. >> >> We'll be posting about this on NZLUG and NZOSS some time fairly soon >> just to make sure we're not duplicating our efforts. >> >> Regards, >> Nevyn. > > > Great post! > > I think that if you are looking for cheap and perhaps slightly older > monitors, ie CRT, then you should try the primary CRT recycler for Auckland, > possibly New Zealand. > > RCN & Associates => http://www.rcn.co.nz > > Located on the North Shore, so not too far away. I'd contact them on behalf > of AuckLUG but are down south atm, let me know if you would like a hand. > > I am not sure but I think that a lot of the 13/15/17" CRTs they get are just > plain dumped or donated via community collection, therefore there should be > no or minimal cost to acquire. However if part of an ongoing OSS project for > schools, maybe they would sponsor you. You can only ask. > > Cheers BF. Where is the infighting? The resistance? Anyone? Perhaps a distro war? It seems we're on the right road. Unfortunately, I can't really start collecting hardware myself just yet (I'm hopefully moving as soon as I've got a new job and so collecting hardware now would just cause issues. Also, I don't drive so collection may be a challenge). I'm giving myself until early next year as a deadline so we've got plenty of time to do this sort of thing. What I would really like to discuss is approaches. Do we approach a school, selected randomly or pick a criteria? My personal feeling is that secondary schools will get more out of Linux. What should the proposal say and be worded and how far are we willing to go i.e. whole lab in one school, one or two computers in a bunch of schools etc. How do we handle support?... so many questions, and loads of time to try and get it right. Regards, Nevyn. _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug From stu9150 at ashs.school.nz Fri Jul 10 17:05:01 2009 From: stu9150 at ashs.school.nz (Shane Richard Geddes) Date: Fri Jul 10 17:05:14 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux In Schools In-Reply-To: <5228B58005AFA743A027937A4AC6075415CA8B@PHS-005.papakurahigh.school.nz> References: <862861130907070050v1d9d1cb5if9c28399c5a8c73d@mail.gmail.com> <5228B58005AFA743A027937A4AC6075415CA8B@PHS-005.papakurahigh.school.nz> Message-ID: <8aa5940e0907092205hf85de63l7e25cd89558178b@mail.gmail.com> Hi, The school that you are talking about is Albany Senior High which I currently go to. 2009/7/10 JHS > Hiya, > > There is already a high school in NZ using solely Linux. I can't remember > then name off the top of my head but will check next time i'm in the office. > There was an article in the education gazette outlining it. > > cheers, > Mat. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz on behalf of Nevyn > Sent: Tue 07/07/2009 23:37 > To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list > Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Linux In Schools > > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 7:50 PM, Boxen Foxen wrote: > > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:49 AM, Nevyn wrote: > > > >> Hi Guys, > >> > >> One of things I was going to talk about was the idea of Linux in > schools. > >> > >> The idea is to have computers that we could donate to schools with > >> Linux on them. Jaco and I have been talking about this on very general > >> terms. > >> > >> This hasn't be discussed, but for my money, I'd like to be able to get > >> a lab full of computers for a high school. This would essentially be a > >> pilot programme to show that it can be done, can be productive, and > >> can be done by people in the community. There would have to be several > >> parts to this. Firstly we'd need an umbrella to put these efforts into > >> this. Secondly, we'd need to find ways of fund raising in order to > >> find the funds to be able to buy computers. Thirdly, we'd need a > >> school to who'd be willing to participate. We'd need to be able to > >> source computers/components. And finally, my end game, we'd need a > >> register of capable Linux technicians. I say this is my end game in > >> that I believe this would help create OSS jobs. I'll say a bit more > >> about this in my next email. > >> > >> In terms of fund raising, I was thinking that there's a sort of > >> harmony to the idea of making some money via certifying. If we were to > >> hold some sort of workshop, and ask for donations, for LPIC training > >> (exams would have to be done under your own steam as you have to be > >> accredited to be able to administer the exam) we would be helping to > >> certify people in an industry that we're trying to promote. There's a > >> sort of poetic justice in educating while aiming to educate.... > >> > >> Grays Online often have ex-lease machines which go fairly cheaply > >> (I've brought several of these machines - they're rocking for the > >> price you can pick 'em up at) but lack monitor / keyboard and mouse. > >> Keyboard and mouse I'm not seeing as too big an issue, but monitors > >> are still fairly expensive so we need ideas on where we could get > >> monitors cheaply. > >> > >> We'll be posting about this on NZLUG and NZOSS some time fairly soon > >> just to make sure we're not duplicating our efforts. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Nevyn. > > > > > > Great post! > > > > I think that if you are looking for cheap and perhaps slightly older > > monitors, ie CRT, then you should try the primary CRT recycler for > Auckland, > > possibly New Zealand. > > > > RCN & Associates => http://www.rcn.co.nz > > > > Located on the North Shore, so not too far away. I'd contact them on > behalf > > of AuckLUG but are down south atm, let me know if you would like a hand. > > > > I am not sure but I think that a lot of the 13/15/17" CRTs they get are > just > > plain dumped or donated via community collection, therefore there should > be > > no or minimal cost to acquire. However if part of an ongoing OSS project > for > > schools, maybe they would sponsor you. You can only ask. > > > > Cheers BF. > > Where is the infighting? The resistance? Anyone? Perhaps a distro war? > > It seems we're on the right road. Unfortunately, I can't really start > collecting hardware myself just yet (I'm hopefully moving as soon as > I've got a new job and so collecting hardware now would just cause > issues. Also, I don't drive so collection may be a challenge). I'm > giving myself until early next year as a deadline so we've got plenty > of time to do this sort of thing. > > What I would really like to discuss is approaches. Do we approach a > school, selected randomly or pick a criteria? My personal feeling is > that secondary schools will get more out of Linux. What should the > proposal say and be worded and how far are we willing to go i.e. whole > lab in one school, one or two computers in a bunch of schools etc. How > do we handle support?... so many questions, and loads of time to try > and get it right. > > Regards, > Nevyn. > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > > From nevynh at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 17:47:32 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Fri Jul 10 17:47:48 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux In Schools In-Reply-To: <8aa5940e0907092205hf85de63l7e25cd89558178b@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907070050v1d9d1cb5if9c28399c5a8c73d@mail.gmail.com> <5228B58005AFA743A027937A4AC6075415CA8B@PHS-005.papakurahigh.school.nz> <8aa5940e0907092205hf85de63l7e25cd89558178b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 5:05 PM, Shane Richard Geddes wrote: > Hi, > The school that you are talking about is Albany Senior High which I > currently go to. There's a reason why this isn't a good example. They started using Linux from scratch. i.e. no I.T. infrastructure already. The purpose of the pilot would be to prove that it could co-exist with their existing systems. Once they've given it a go, they'll have options. a) Switch everything over the Linux b) Switch everything to Windows c) Keep things as they are and run the 2 side by side It's sort of like saying that every band can make money using Radiohead's example of "pay as much as you like". They're already a big name and people are going to gravitate towards them. (there's a business in here somewhere - I'm still forming it in my head). Poor just starting out pretty good but unknown band with friends and family as fan boys are unlikely to be able to make the model work. In saying all of that, what are your impressions of it Shane? Do you prefer using Linux in the classroom? Regards, Nevyn. From john at og.co.nz Fri Jul 10 17:50:35 2009 From: john at og.co.nz (john) Date: Fri Jul 10 17:57:35 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux In Schools In-Reply-To: <5228B58005AFA743A027937A4AC6075415CA8B@PHS-005.papakurahigh.school.nz> References: <862861130907070050v1d9d1cb5if9c28399c5a8c73d@mail.gmail.com> <5228B58005AFA743A027937A4AC6075415CA8B@PHS-005.papakurahigh.school.nz> Message-ID: <4A56D6AB.7060002@og.co.nz> JHS wrote: > Hiya, > > There is already a high school in NZ using solely Linux. I can't remember then name off the top of my head but will check next time i'm in the office. There was an article in the education gazette outlining it. > Onehunga High School used to be all-Linux and maybe still is. John O'Gorman > cheers, > Mat. > > From mvaraine at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 18:14:25 2009 From: mvaraine at gmail.com (Morgan) Date: Fri Jul 10 18:14:38 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux In Schools In-Reply-To: References: <862861130907070050v1d9d1cb5if9c28399c5a8c73d@mail.gmail.com> <5228B58005AFA743A027937A4AC6075415CA8B@PHS-005.papakurahigh.school.nz> <8aa5940e0907092205hf85de63l7e25cd89558178b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8af1512a0907092314h5a81a7d4k490da2f12f2de58e@mail.gmail.com> Just my 2c: Instead of furnishing a lab full of obsolete hardware and energy guzzling CRTs, not to mention the amount of space you need for one as well, a bunch of thin clients and decent server would be a lot more efficient. And not only in terms of energy saving. With multiple machines you multiply your support needs. I used to do some part time support for a school with over a 100 macs/pcs/laptops, and 90% of my time was spent running around fixing simple problems that a thin client environment would have completely eliminated. You also get the benefit of centralised storage, making backing up easy, as well as kids not having to always use the same machine, or someone accidently deleting their work.It also scales really well. Upgrade server, or Load balance a couple of them, make sure the network can handle the extra load, and just add more clients. Thin "Fat" clients are also a good way to recycle some of the smaller desktop PCs, and would be a good way to demonstrate the feasibilty of the project. And once the purse string holders know that for the price of one new desktop they can buy 3-4 thin clients, who knows what might happen. LTSP is worth looking at. Teachers can look at kids work live from their desk, they can help out if needed thru shared session. You can also display your session on all terminals, enabling you lead the classroom. Edubuntu ( http://edubuntu.org/) can do it out of the box if anyone wants to try it. Morgan. -- Clifford Stoll - "The Internet is a telephone system that's gotten uppity." From stu9150 at ashs.school.nz Fri Jul 10 18:21:23 2009 From: stu9150 at ashs.school.nz (Shane Richard Geddes) Date: Fri Jul 10 18:21:31 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux In Schools In-Reply-To: <4A56D6AB.7060002@og.co.nz> References: <862861130907070050v1d9d1cb5if9c28399c5a8c73d@mail.gmail.com> <5228B58005AFA743A027937A4AC6075415CA8B@PHS-005.papakurahigh.school.nz> <4A56D6AB.7060002@og.co.nz> Message-ID: <8aa5940e0907092321w7b5b1857p72f3a79dc7562f9d@mail.gmail.com> I would have to say that using linux in the classroom is much better that Windows. The first reason would be that at Albany Junior High which uses Windows, there always was a long login time, where you would have to wait for the roaming profiles to be loaded, but on Ubuntu the shares are mounted using autofs and NFS so everything is only copied when it is needed. My next reason would have to be that is seems to be so much faster on the whole. Taking in what I have heard other people saying about it, there really hasn't been many problems. Lastly, because there is heaps of software for linux that is free we have access to a much broader range. So in answer to the question, yes I prefer using linux in the classroom. 2009/7/10 john > JHS wrote: > > Hiya, > > > > There is already a high school in NZ using solely Linux. I can't remember > then name off the top of my head but will check next time i'm in the office. > There was an article in the education gazette outlining it. > > > Onehunga High School used to be all-Linux and maybe still is. > > John O'Gorman > > cheers, > > Mat. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From nevynh at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 20:15:11 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Fri Jul 10 20:15:22 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux In Schools In-Reply-To: <8af1512a0907092314h5a81a7d4k490da2f12f2de58e@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907070050v1d9d1cb5if9c28399c5a8c73d@mail.gmail.com> <5228B58005AFA743A027937A4AC6075415CA8B@PHS-005.papakurahigh.school.nz> <8aa5940e0907092205hf85de63l7e25cd89558178b@mail.gmail.com> <8af1512a0907092314h5a81a7d4k490da2f12f2de58e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Morgan wrote: > Just my 2c: > > Instead of furnishing a lab full of obsolete hardware and energy guzzling > CRTs, not to mention the amount of space you need for one as well, a bunch > of thin clients and decent server would be a lot more efficient. > > And not only in terms of energy saving. With multiple machines you multiply > your support needs. I used to do some part time support for a school with > over a 100 macs/pcs/laptops, and 90% of my time was spent running around > fixing simple problems that a thin client environment would have completely > eliminated. > > You also get the benefit of centralised storage, making backing up easy, as > well as kids not having to always use the same machine, or someone > accidently deleting their work.It also scales really well. Upgrade server, > or Load balance a couple of them, make sure the network can handle the extra > load, and just add more clients. > > Thin "Fat" clients are also a good way to recycle some of the smaller > desktop PCs, and would be a good way to demonstrate the feasibilty of the > project. And once the purse string holders know that for the price of one > new desktop they can buy 3-4 thin clients, who knows what might happen. > > LTSP is worth looking at. Teachers can look at kids work live from their > desk, they can help out if needed thru shared session. You can also display > your session on all terminals, enabling you lead the classroom. Edubuntu ( > http://edubuntu.org/) can do it out of the box if anyone wants to try it. > > Morgan. There's definitely room for this discussion - I fear that if I weigh in though, it will be like I'm stamping on such discussion and I definitely think this should be a community thing. Also this is nothing new. Jaco and I talked about this the first time we met. We always looked at it as something that the community could get involved in. So... I'm going to spend some time this weekend writing a bit more on this, state more on the reasons as to why I proposed the original specifications, and then see if we can weigh up the pros and cons of one approach over another and change the specs. if applicable. Hopefully Jaco will weigh in himself a bit - we've never really talked specs. Just that we should go forth and do something in this arena. Also, I've got to send something to both NZOSS and NZLUG about this just to make sure we're not duplicating efforts. Regards, Nevyn. From jis at quicksilver.net.nz Sat Jul 11 14:52:55 2009 From: jis at quicksilver.net.nz (jis@quicksilver.net.nz) Date: Sat Jul 11 14:53:11 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Linux in schools In-Reply-To: <200907100816.n6A8GQ9P003335@gaffer.hosts.net.nz> References: <200907100816.n6A8GQ9P003335@gaffer.hosts.net.nz> Message-ID: <4A58A747.2186.7C598E@jis.quicksilver.net.nz> > LTSP is worth looking at. Teachers can look at kids work live from their > desk, they can help out if needed thru shared session. You can also display > your session on all terminals, enabling you lead the classroom. Edubuntu ( > http://edubuntu.org/) can do it out of the box if anyone wants to try it. I earn my living from part time business activities, day relief teaching (mainly secondary) and occasional long term relieving secondary teaching. I have used computer labs when teaching both maths and computer subjects. In both cases I have found that having a convenient means of demonstrating to a class as a whole has made a tremendous difference and I mean tremendous. A large proportion of schools lack such facilities. This could be a great "selling point" for Edubuntu in schools. The first thing I usually need to do when using computers in the teaching of maths with the aid of computers is to teach spreadsheet skills. Doing that using a whiteboard in a computer lab is a very slow and highly inefficient process. One thing I have learned the hard way in business is that it is not sufficient to find a need; it is very important to first find out what the potential customer wants and is looking for and start from there. School which are considering replacement of all of the computers in one of their computer labs might be the most receptive because they are the ones which are most likely to be rethinking the direction in which they move. They will also be in the process of thinking about what to do with the old computers. Would it be worthwhile suggesting their use as thin clients for Edubuntu, for instance? I am not trying to start a distro war but, rather, throwing ideas around. Their are school system administrators who are interested in Linux. Having more than one operating system in a school is not unheard of. Most of my relieving teaching is in a school which uses Macs for art and related subjects and Windows for other subjects. I will talk to the relevant teachers and systems administrators in the schools where I teach. Don Johnston From nevynh at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 00:49:02 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Sun Jul 12 00:49:28 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] More detailed email about Linux in Schools. Message-ID: Hi Guys, Well here's my more in-depth email detailing the reasons around some of the ideas that I've been throwing out there. I apologise for the forceful language I've used here. All points are up for discussion ? I'm not trying to dictate anything here, just to state the reasons behind some of the ideas I've thrown out there. I have been thinking about this a lot of late so I do find myself feeling rather passionate about it. So basically, the idea of donating computers is to create an offer that a school simply couldn't afford to turn down. You may have been thinking that I was looking around for old computers. Truth be told, I think I may have found something that's perfect. You see, not all companies own computers ? they lease them instead. So there are an abundance of ex-lease machines ? around the 3GHz mark for around $100. The other bit that makes these computers so desirable is that they have a uniform look. So computers themselves are fairly cheap. The main problem is that monitors aren't. It'd be a shame to have uniform looking computers all tainted by oddball CRT's. We want to make Linux in the classroom look modern ? it should outshine Windows. It should create a positive vibe. It should have the school ranting and raving about how wonderful not only the OS, but the hardware itself is. This isn't going to happen via CRT's so what I really need is a cheap source of LCD screens, preferably the same model. Looking at pricespy, these start at around $200. That's unacceptable in my books so I'm looking for sources... Remember, if we do anything, we have to be creating a positive user experience. This means, not only in the support, but in the professionalism of the product we provide. Right... as for thin clients... I'm avoiding this road for the time being. I want Linux to be seen not as a quick fix for ageing hardware, but as a full blown, no compromise replacement to Windows. Not just to XP but more modern versions of Windows (Vista, 7 ? does anyone else have that sinking feeling that Windows 7, using the short form of ?7? kind of reminds you about those ads that used to come on T.V. around personal tax time?). Get the functionality (not just an OS, but included Office Suite, Image Manipulation Program etc.) and more without having to worry about licenses and with less security worries (viruses and malware). I think there is room for thin clients and it's definitely something we should look into at some point but I don't think it aligns itself well to an open pilot (I'll explain this soon) where we're showing a school everything they can do with Linux. As for distribution discussions... leave it out. We're no where near that point. It distracts from what we should be discussing, and that's more the fundamental aims. The functionality that some people have been talking about such as shared desktops ? this can be accomplished in any distribution. We can look into this more when we look at the specifics. Also, we need to look at how much money we'd need to fund this and ways of raising that money. Now, you may be asking, ?what do we get out of this??. The idea is to stop talking about it and have a go. We be as open about it as humanly possible ? so a website with documentation on what we're implementing, how we're implementing it, the impressions from the school and students etc. A fully transparent process which we can hopefully build some hype around and get publicised. If we get it right, we've just publicised an industry which we can exploit. i.e. we could potentially start a couple of companies and start offering it to other schools. How would this be done? I think I've spoken about an umbrella organisation. That umbrella organisation would be the one conducting the pilot and would afterwards only really serve as a register of companies able to do various levels of work from support to full implementations. In other words, we'd be looking to open up schools to the idea of Linux and creating jobs within the Open Source arena. So as for the offer to the school. In order to have a pilot, we'd have to specify a time period. i.e. a term. We set up the computers, put them in a classroom, offer training, provide support (keep a stack of live cd's within the room). We have a log of everything that goes wrong with it, and how we fixed it and possibly even a log of how long it took us to fix various issues. For that term, we still own the machines. It's only when the pilot is over that we donate those computers. Once we've donated those computers, the school is completely free to do with them as they wish. So they may chose to install Windows. This is something we should be prepared for ? it'd be a slap in the face and an indication that we got it wrong ? but I don't really see this happening. Secondly, they may choose to keep them as they are. Thirdly, they may ask for more computers to have Linux installed. In which case, the umbrella organisation should probably step away and let a commercial entity (hopefully one that's started from a few members here) to come in and do the work. Personally, the reason for me wanting to get this going is simple. I want to have done something that means something. Linux in the classroom means something to me... Regards, Nevyn. From davemc at mcpond.co.nz Sun Jul 12 21:18:41 2009 From: davemc at mcpond.co.nz (David McNeill) Date: Sun Jul 12 21:18:35 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux in schools pilot Message-ID: <4A59AA71.1060803@mcpond.co.nz> > >> LTSP is worth looking at. (Updated from post of 15/8/2008) We've already done all of this for our local primary school, Te Hihi School in Karaka, Franklin. We've been at it for three years. It is a primary school with role of 230, ten teachers. Features * Edubuntu LTSP 5 server for 20 class room desktops, spread 2 per class. Previously a recycled workstation, now a brand new ML350 G5 dual quad core with 8Gb RAM. * Samba primary ldap authentication, file, email & print server * Asterisk telephony server * IPCop and soon pfSense firewall & content filter & dual diverse wan * ZoneMinder surveillance server for cameras * Joomla content management * Moodle learning management * Trac ticket issue tracking * Nagios real time device monitoring * Open office, Firefox, Thunderbird plus a huge raft of other open source software. LTSP overall gave much better control of client machines, instead of the previous 20 standalone networked windows machines with soooo many issues. So much administration time dealing with viruses, logins, corruptions, messed up desktops, missing applications. That single fact alone makes it economic to run Linux/LTSP in saved admin time. It was so bad there was never going to be enough time to get those machines under control. Given that you can't even network boot a thin client windows on all hardware, it has to be linux. Benefits * Easier administration. In that if it goes wrong, you can figure it out * Stable servers, good up time * Good performance - LTSP handles many users well * LTSP enables older machines to be reused as thin clients. Anything ATX is reuseable. Unplug the hard drive, CD ROM, floppy, install a boot rom into network card, and ready to go. Easy to swap out when they fail. * Easy to prevent students "rearranging" desktops, icons, settings, with permissions or scripts. * Everyone has access to an application once you enable it on LTSP * VOIP is a huge saving in cabling. You can have a phone anywhere. * Failed box swap out is quick and easy * LDAP login for everything is good Gotchas * Install vmware before you need it. If hardware goes down and you can move the server image to vmware in the short term, your up time is better, your down time grief less. * Focus all your authentication on LDAP, and make everything talk to it. Otherwise you get user account proliferation for the various applications. * Many apps can be made to work in Wine, you just have to spend the time to figure it out. * Newer versions of Ubuntu are much, much easier than older. So many users means so many bug fixes. So many bugs that make life hard. * Go easy on wireless, it's starting to be banned in schools in Europe. Length of time in years is the key risk factor with EMF / RF exposure. Pitfalls * Teachers do not switch easily to Ubuntu. Especially older ones. Teacher laptops remain on Windows. At least they run firefox, thunderbird & open office. * Local sound on LTSP 4 is a challenge, 5 is fine. * Linux educational offerings like gCompris & Childsplay are good, as far as they go. There simply isn't a good Linux offering of basic learn to read, learn maths, learn spelling. We are currently implementing a Windows Terminal Server to get access to the very wide range of educational software available on windows. Frequenty Ministry of Ed offerings are Windows or Mac only. * Once dependent on Asterisk, you have to work on it to a high standard, because if the phones go down all hell lets loose very quickly. * None of the free voip softphones (Ekiga etc) are sufficient for office staff. Buy one. we use Zoiper. * Lack of groupware is an issue. email - calendar - contacts all in one place, all integrated. No Linux solution provides a complete answer. Zimbra is ok, but forces a complete change to web based. Other solutions arent free (ie thousands), are complex, or need a lot of implementation. Currently we use Thunderbird, syncKolab (mmehh ... alpha quality) & google calendar. Not ideal. * ZoneMinder's compression isn't great, meaning it gobbles a lot of disk for the time. Currently we only get 2 weeks on 8 cameras on a terabyte of disk. It doesn't do sparse ageing well either. Need to configure mpeg arhcive encoding manually. * Poor X implementation in a game can see a bouncing ball consume 90Mbit/sec bandwidth on XDMCP. At least the protocol can perform well! NX doesnt fair any better for the same fault. * Keep investing in training ("professional development" in teacher speak), Teachers need it to understand Linux Desktop, and help students to use it. They come with no built-in ability to adapt to Linux. You know those creative, left brain, people-networking sorts, they never make good geeks. * ICT is their (education/government) acronym for technology, use it in preference to IT (business/industry). * keyboard connectors on motherboards fail * Cables in general get a hard time, especially flyleads * Machines can still be noisy, with older fans. The full compliment of gear at school is * Ubuntu File Server with ldap, cups, trac, moodle, joomla, access-it library (proprietory java) * Debian telephone server with Asterisk * Ubuntu Server with security cameras on ZoneMinder * pfSense firewall with dual diverse wan circuits * 20 thin clients recycled desktops, mostly 600Mhz to 1.2Ghz AMD's and assorted Pentiums. Screens are a mix of CRT's and new purchase LCD's. * 10 laptops as thin clients * 10 teacher laptops on Windows XP * 3 administration PCs on Windows XP * 15 voip telephones * 10 UPSs * 4 Cisco wireless APs * 8 Cisco switches * Gbit Fibre backbone * 10 projectors, soon to be connected to thin clients to serve them * Windows Terminal Server 2003 fully licenced, for software that just wont run under wine. Setup for seamless auto login, so specific applications are run from the normal thin client Ubuntu menu with no additional login, eg Learning/PM Reader Red. It takes us a full commercial day per week to keep all this stuff running. -- David McNeill davemc@mcpond.co.nz McPond Software Open Source Support and Development www.mcpond.co.nz From swht at clear.net.nz Sun Jul 12 23:11:03 2009 From: swht at clear.net.nz (simon) Date: Sun Jul 12 23:11:48 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux on Dell Inspiron 3500 Message-ID: <4A59C4C7.30000@clear.net.nz> I'm trying to set up a lightweight and fast Linux OS on my son's new old Dell laptop (64 Mb Ram, 333.9 Mhz, i686 CPU). It gave me great satisfaction to nix win98 when upon researching the best option I found Puppy and took the option to first try a frugal install - which wiped the harddrive. Since then I've been back and forth with issues: the main one seems to be that neither a full install nor a frugal one stick - in terms of preserving settings and setting up the requisite pup_save file. The problem appears to be in the partitioning of the harddrive. I admit I made the mistake of trying to dodge the difficulties I could see looming - owing to my ignorance of how to set up partitions - by opting to superfloppy the entire harddrive: an option reserved for running Puppy off flashdrives, sticks, etc. Puppy, when I got it loading off the harddrive, would not reboot or shutdown and would not therefore set up a pup_save file holding on to settings. Nor would it recognise the Asus Wlan card although I identified the driver as rt2400 which exists in Puppy's list. Next step has been to try Xubuntu, an OS recognised for gerontophilia. Each time I try installing Xubuntu 8.10 stalls at the partitioning step. This leads me to think Puppy has left the harddrive in a state of devastation. However I don't know. The object of this exercise was - a theme of current aucklug discussions - to educate my son in Linux. But the OS has to be minimally functional in order that he can interact with it. I haven't the knowledge at this stage to get over this initial hump. Advice would be welcome. Yours, Simon Taylor From simon at simongreen.name Sun Jul 12 23:21:51 2009 From: simon at simongreen.name (Simon Green) Date: Sun Jul 12 23:22:17 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux on Dell Inspiron 3500 In-Reply-To: <4A59C4C7.30000@clear.net.nz> References: <4A59C4C7.30000@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <4d1940c20907120421w51c8fcc3kd99e7f55d76c5b68@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/12 simon > Next step has been to try Xubuntu, an OS recognised for gerontophilia. Each > time I try installing Xubuntu 8.10 stalls at the partitioning step. This > leads me to think Puppy has left the harddrive in a state of devastation. > However I don't know. > > The object of this exercise was - a theme of current aucklug discussions - > to educate my son in Linux. But the OS has to be minimally functional in > order that he can interact with it. I haven't the knowledge at this stage to > get over this initial hump. Advice would be welcome. The Xubuntu CD should have a partition manager (gparted) available from the menu (it's on the Ubuntu CD and would be surprized if it wasn't in Xubuntu Live too). You could try using this to partition the disk before beginning the install. -- simon From swht at clear.net.nz Mon Jul 13 01:01:17 2009 From: swht at clear.net.nz (simon) Date: Mon Jul 13 01:01:36 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux on Dell Inspiron 3500 In-Reply-To: <4d1940c20907120421w51c8fcc3kd99e7f55d76c5b68@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A59C4C7.30000@clear.net.nz> <4d1940c20907120421w51c8fcc3kd99e7f55d76c5b68@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A59DE9D.70707@clear.net.nz> > > The Xubuntu CD should have a partition manager (gparted) available from the > menu (it's on the Ubuntu CD and would be surprized if it wasn't in Xubuntu > Live too). You could try using this to partition the disk before beginning > the install. > > -- simon > > Thanks, Simon, I can get to Gparted in the Puppy disc I made ... as to what I should do when I get there, I don't know. I followed a series of instructions which left the disc formatted to Ext3 for the purposes of installing Puppy but the OS didn't work. Simon From tobias.gerschner at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 09:58:25 2009 From: tobias.gerschner at gmail.com (Tobias Gerschner) Date: Mon Jul 13 09:58:54 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] VirtualBox 3.0.2 released , networking problems fixed Message-ID: Hi, For those who where interested in VirtualBox during the last AuckLug meeting ... . The networking issues that I reported on VirtualBox 3.0.0 were a bug in VirtualBox network support and are now fixed in the 3.0.2 release of VirtualBox. regards -- Tobias Gerschner Yoper Linux - www.yoper.com Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do. From nevynh at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 10:48:13 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Mon Jul 13 10:48:24 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring Message-ID: Okay - while not being strictly Linux related, I think there's a fair few of us who would be affected by this. I share the sentiments of this post: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/freitasm/6625 While I agree that "laws forbid viewing or owning certain types of material (e.g. depictions of bestiality or sex with children)" are ethical and right, I see this as a possible foot in the door for other censorship and given that there are ways to circumvent all sorts of censorship, I think that law abiding citizens are more likely to feel the effects than someone who knows how to circumvent such censorship. Regards, Nevyn. From david.roberts at safecom.co.nz Mon Jul 13 11:00:22 2009 From: david.roberts at safecom.co.nz (David Roberts) Date: Mon Jul 13 11:10:40 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E01771A26@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> Does this mean that a site I put up with pics of my pre-school nephews swimming is going to be blocked? :D -----Original Message----- From: aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz [mailto:aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz] On Behalf Of Nevyn Sent: Monday, 13 July 2009 10:48 a.m. To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring Okay - while not being strictly Linux related, I think there's a fair few of us who would be affected by this. I share the sentiments of this post: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/freitasm/6625 While I agree that "laws forbid viewing or owning certain types of material (e.g. depictions of bestiality or sex with children)" are ethical and right, I see this as a possible foot in the door for other censorship and given that there are ways to circumvent all sorts of censorship, I think that law abiding citizens are more likely to feel the effects than someone who knows how to circumvent such censorship. Regards, Nevyn. _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug ##################################################################################### Important: This electronic message and attachments (if any) are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient do not copy, disclose or use the contents in any way. Please let us know by return e-mail immediately and then destroy this message. ##################################################################################### From simon at simongreen.name Mon Jul 13 11:33:04 2009 From: simon at simongreen.name (Simon Green) Date: Mon Jul 13 11:33:33 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring In-Reply-To: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E01771A26@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> References: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E01771A26@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> Message-ID: <4d1940c20907121633p45b4ca03xd31a64821984c977@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/13 David Roberts > Does this mean that a site I put up with pics of my pre-school nephews > swimming is going to be blocked? Off course not. The Internet filter will (very likely) only target material that is currently classified as illegal with the current legislation. Personally, I'm pro filter. The government have a right[2] to classify and/or ban other material (magazines, movies, music). Why should it not extend to the Internet if technically possible? I know that people that want to seek out such material will still be able to access it, but that is no different to people who import banned books and DVDs from an overseas website. According to a ComputerWorld article[1], TelstraClear are currently filtering the WWW for its customers, and most ISP are filtering e-mail (some compulsorily) too. Britain have introduced a compolsory government controlled WWW filter. Other than one slip up of a Wikipedia picture, I have not heard any adverse reports from its use. -- simon [1] http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/75A0F2C47426F715CC25750B000FCFBD?Opendocument(no mention that it is a trial) [2] The right of government to ban material is definitely outside the scope of this list. From blakjak at blakjak.net Mon Jul 13 11:39:56 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Mon Jul 13 11:40:05 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring In-Reply-To: <4d1940c20907121633p45b4ca03xd31a64821984c977@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E01771A26@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <4d1940c20907121633p45b4ca03xd31a64821984c977@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <13841.119.15.0.26.1247441996.squirrel@webmail.blakjak.net> On Mon, July 13, 2009 11:33 am, Simon Green wrote: > 2009/7/13 David Roberts > >> Does this mean that a site I put up with pics of my pre-school nephews >> swimming is going to be blocked? > > > Off course not. The Internet filter will (very likely) only target > material > that is currently classified as illegal with the current legislation. > Personally, I'm pro filter. The government have a right[2] to classify > and/or ban other material (magazines, movies, music). Why should it not > extend to the Internet if technically possible? > > I know that people that want to seek out such material will still be able > to > access it, but that is no different to people who import banned books and > DVDs from an overseas website. > > According to a ComputerWorld article[1], TelstraClear are currently > filtering the WWW for its customers, and most ISP are filtering e-mail > (some > compulsorily) too. Britain have introduced a compolsory government > controlled WWW filter. Other than one slip up of a Wikipedia picture, I > have > not heard any adverse reports from its use. > Simon has it pretty much nailed in its intent and likely implementation. The technical solution is explained here: http://thomasbeagle.net/2009/07/12/nz-internet-filtering-technical-faq/ I'd encourage those with a serious interest in discussing the pros and cons to consider using the NZOSS Openchat[1] list... the philosophical and ethical side of things are right up the alley of people there; I see the LUGs as remaining technically focussed on things-Linux. Mark. [1] http://lists.nzoss.org.nz/pipermail/openchat/2009-July/thread.html#2405 From Daemonax at orcon.net.nz Mon Jul 13 13:25:10 2009 From: Daemonax at orcon.net.nz (Daemonax) Date: Mon Jul 13 13:25:20 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring In-Reply-To: <4d1940c20907121633p45b4ca03xd31a64821984c977@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E01771A26@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <4d1940c20907121633p45b4ca03xd31a64821984c977@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1247448310.6661.2.camel@studypad> > Personally, I'm pro filter. For the sake of clarity, I highly doubt that you mean this. I think it would be more accurate to say that you're not mindlessly anti-censorship, and you admit that there are some cases in which you have no problem with censorship being used. I can certainly think of situations where I think censorship could be used for some good, but I wouldn't say that I'm pro-censorship. Someone like Stephen Conroy I would say is pro-censorship... From g.kloss at massey.ac.nz Mon Jul 13 16:42:16 2009 From: g.kloss at massey.ac.nz (Guy K. Kloss) Date: Mon Jul 13 16:42:32 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring In-Reply-To: <4d1940c20907121633p45b4ca03xd31a64821984c977@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E01771A26@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <4d1940c20907121633p45b4ca03xd31a64821984c977@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200907131642.16838.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 11:33:04 Simon Green wrote: > Off course not. The Internet filter will (very likely) only target material > that is currently classified as illegal with the current legislation. > Personally, I'm pro filter. The government have a right[2] to classify > and/or ban other material (magazines, movies, music). Why should it not > extend to the Internet if technically possible? This discussion has just gone through Germany, who have just passed (unfortunately) a law on filtering. The problem with this whole stuff is that it is (A) very expensive, and (B) not very reliable as it can easily be circumvented, and (C) there is too much lee way for misuse of censoring (as has happened in Oz). In the discussion it was also mentioned that some study from somewhere in Scandinavia (forgot where/what exactly) has shown that the money/effort was much more effectively spent on finding and going after the providers, rather than trying to block out stuff on the net. Unfortunately the discussion was pulled up by the media frenziness of the politicians in a way like "If you're not against this proposed legislation, then obviously you're pro child porn ..." In my opinion: Use the money more effectively by going after the bad guys, rather than trying to waterproof a fishing net. And keep your fingers clear of censorship, as that can strike back in a much worse way. Guy -- Guy K. Kloss Institute of Information and Mathematical Sciences Te Kura P?taiao o M?hiohio me P?ngarau Massey University, Albany (North Shore City, Auckland) 473 State Highway 17, Gate 1, Mailroom, Quad B Building voice: +64 9 414-0800 ext. 9585 fax: +64 9 441-8181 G.Kloss@massey.ac.nz http://www.massey.ac.nz/~gkloss From simon at simongreen.name Mon Jul 13 17:26:08 2009 From: simon at simongreen.name (Simon Green) Date: Mon Jul 13 17:26:49 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring In-Reply-To: <200907131642.16838.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> References: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E01771A26@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <4d1940c20907121633p45b4ca03xd31a64821984c977@mail.gmail.com> <200907131642.16838.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4d1940c20907122226s45c37e3dm205e6b414f7e9e18@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/13 Guy K. Kloss > This discussion has just gone through Germany, who have just passed > (unfortunately) a law on filtering. The problem with this whole stuff is > that > it is (A) very expensive, and (B) not very reliable as it can easily be > circumvented, and (C) there is too much lee way for misuse of censoring (as > has happened in Oz). In the discussion it was also mentioned that some > study a) I have no idea in costs, but I'm sure it is not very expensive. Countries like the UK have implemented without cost increases (but then maybe the tax payer is footing the bill). b) It cannot be circumvented unless you actively try and circumvent it. c) Can you explain about the misuse of censoring in Australia? We haven't implemented government (ACMA) controlled censoring here (yet). Some trials with smaller ISPs have taken place, and the government will be releasing its reporting either next month or September. I haven't read any reports of these trials being misused. There was a reported ACMA list on Wikileaks, but that has turned out to be false. I haven't seen any official reports that our compolsory censor is going to be misused (i.e.block any thing other than illegal content). In my opinion: Use the money more effectively by going after the bad guys, > rather than trying to waterproof a fishing net. And keep your fingers clear > of > censorship, as that can strike back in a much worse way. > And we all know how well that is working for music / movie priarcy. Daemonax: I am pro-filter. Pro-filter is different than pro-censorship though. A government controlled Internet filter[1] will only block material that is already illegal to view in that country. -- simon [1] I'm of course excluding countries like China and others that delibrately block more than illegal material from this list. From Daemonax at orcon.net.nz Mon Jul 13 17:44:58 2009 From: Daemonax at orcon.net.nz (Daemonax) Date: Mon Jul 13 17:45:18 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring In-Reply-To: <4d1940c20907122226s45c37e3dm205e6b414f7e9e18@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E01771A26@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <4d1940c20907121633p45b4ca03xd31a64821984c977@mail.gmail.com> <200907131642.16838.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> <4d1940c20907122226s45c37e3dm205e6b414f7e9e18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1247463898.9541.7.camel@studypad> On Mon, 2009-07-13 at 15:26 +1000, Simon Green wrote: > Daemonax: I am pro-filter. Pro-filter is different than pro-censorship > though. A government controlled Internet filter[1] will only block > material > that is already illegal to view in that country. Are you saying that there won't be any false positives? Because I'd almost guarantee that there will be some. >Pro-filter is different than pro-censorship >though. Woops, sorry. The difference is rather subtle and I glossed over it. Will there be a publicly accessible list of filtered websites/content? Because the great fear that people have is abuse. And all the evidence we have from our history points to politicians always abusing their power, so it'd be nice to be able to see what is being filtered if possible. There should also be laws that punish anyone that has the ability to, and does, abuse the power the filtering gives them. From simon at simongreen.name Mon Jul 13 18:08:56 2009 From: simon at simongreen.name (Simon Green) Date: Mon Jul 13 18:09:23 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring In-Reply-To: <1247463898.9541.7.camel@studypad> References: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E01771A26@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <4d1940c20907121633p45b4ca03xd31a64821984c977@mail.gmail.com> <200907131642.16838.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> <4d1940c20907122226s45c37e3dm205e6b414f7e9e18@mail.gmail.com> <1247463898.9541.7.camel@studypad> Message-ID: <4d1940c20907122308q6ad9ac40sbaddc7de2b30612@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/13 Daemonax > Are you saying that there won't be any false positives? Because I'd > almost guarantee that there will be some. > Never say never. I assume there will be a process to appeal a banned website, just like there is a process already to appeal the classification of other media. Will there be a publicly accessible list of filtered websites/content? > Because the great fear that people have is abuse. And all the evidence > we have from our history points to politicians always abusing their > power, so it'd be nice to be able to see what is being filtered if > possible. There should also be laws that punish anyone that has the > ability to, and does, abuse the power the filtering gives them. > I don't think the list should be published. It won't be the government and politicians controlling the list, rather the Department of Internal Affairs. They will compile such as list as required by law. Fact is that they already have a list, and TelstraClear customers are using the filter list whether they like it or not. I haven't heard reports of any customers hitting a blocked site that shouldn't have been (likewise with the filter trial we recently had in Australia). I cannot see any advantage in publishing a list of sites that are banned. That will only help the people that want to access such content. -- simon From seth7f at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 19:03:10 2009 From: seth7f at gmail.com (Seth Fischer) Date: Mon Jul 13 18:58:06 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() Message-ID: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> Hi, I've got a new VPS subscription running Ubuntu 7.10. Every time anacron runs a cron job I receive the following error messages: I can't find any information about /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() so any help will be appreciated. /etc/cron.daily/logrotate: /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied /etc/cron.daily/sysklogd: /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied Line 22 of /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh refers to /dev/console. Being a server it won't have a console (assuming console == monitor?). What is the purpose of line22? Can I (or should I) replace /dev/console with /dev/null? Line 22 of /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh loop=y $func "$@" /dev/console 2>&1 || true First 23 lines of /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: # Default init script logging functions suitable for Ubuntu. # See /lib/lsb/init-functions for usage help. log_use_usplash () { if [ "${loop:-n}" = y ]; then return 1 fi type usplash_write >/dev/null 2>&1 } log_to_console () { [ "${loop:-n}" != y ] || return 0 [ "${QUIET:-no}" != yes ] || return 0 # Only output to the console when we're given /dev/null stdin=`readlink /proc/self/fd/0` [ "${stdin#/dev/null}" != "$stdin" ] || return 0 func=$1 shift loop=y $func "$@" /dev/console 2>&1 || true } From daniel at rimspace.net Mon Jul 13 19:40:12 2009 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Mon Jul 13 19:40:30 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> (Seth Fischer's message of "Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:03:10 +1200") References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> Seth Fischer writes: > I've got a new VPS subscription running Ubuntu 7.10. Every time anacron runs > a cron job I receive the following error messages: [...] > /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied > > Line 22 of /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh refers to /dev/console. Being a server > it won't have a console (assuming console == monitor?). No. /dev/console refers to whatever Linux virtual console device you have configured. By default that is the virtual terminals sitting on the VGA device, but you can change it to whatever you want. Nothing in the system really cares if a *monitor* is plugged in, and I strongly suspect your device has either a VGA compatible card or a serial port somewhere inside. :) > What is the purpose of line22? Can I (or should I) replace /dev/console with > /dev/null? No. The purpose of it is to write to the system console. Throwing away errors wholesale is probably *not* what you want to do. Regards, Daniel -- ? Daniel Pittman ? daniel@rimspace.net ? +61 401 155 707 ? made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons From ru1812 at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 19:48:47 2009 From: ru1812 at gmail.com (Ru) Date: Mon Jul 13 19:49:19 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring In-Reply-To: <4d1940c20907122308q6ad9ac40sbaddc7de2b30612@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E01771A26@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <4d1940c20907121633p45b4ca03xd31a64821984c977@mail.gmail.com> <200907131642.16838.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> <4d1940c20907122226s45c37e3dm205e6b414f7e9e18@mail.gmail.com> <1247463898.9541.7.camel@studypad> <4d1940c20907122308q6ad9ac40sbaddc7de2b30612@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <333b9f7c0907130048t46c750f5m3a0ad9f061820163@mail.gmail.com> This is a very bad thing, Information should be freely available and not filtered or blocked. I understand that the argument on the government's side, is to help stamp-out pedophilia and bring those to justice who deal in this. We know morally that pedophilia is wrong, It is a tragic thing to take the innocents of a child. But you see Filtering which is a more user friendly word for Spying can become so easily corrupted, when the those at the helm are corrupted themselves. We see this happening all over the world, you just need to look at what is going on in Iran at the moment, we often hear of indie sites " indymedia.org" or sites like wikileaks being taken down or blocked. I think we have to be very careful, Laws like this tend to slip in under the radar down here in Aotearoa New Zealand, we in the GNU/Linux Free Software/Free Culture world know the value of Freedom, and for that to be taken from us would be a tragedy. I think maybe, a good Idea is to tell as many people as you can, make them understand better, give them examples. Allot of people believe that this sort of thing doesn't happen in this country, governments don't spy on you here, that only happens in other Country's. But it does happen here, yes I think a good idea is to get the word out Blogs, Social Networking Sites, etc. On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 6:08 PM, Simon Green wrote: > 2009/7/13 Daemonax > > > Are you saying that there won't be any false positives? Because I'd > > almost guarantee that there will be some. > > > > Never say never. I assume there will be a process to appeal a banned > website, just like there is a process already to appeal the classification > of other media. > > Will there be a publicly accessible list of filtered websites/content? > > Because the great fear that people have is abuse. And all the evidence > > we have from our history points to politicians always abusing their > > power, so it'd be nice to be able to see what is being filtered if > > possible. There should also be laws that punish anyone that has the > > ability to, and does, abuse the power the filtering gives them. > > > > I don't think the list should be published. It won't be the government and > politicians controlling the list, rather the Department of Internal > Affairs. > They will compile such as list as required by law. Fact is that they > already > have a list, and TelstraClear customers are using the filter list whether > they like it or not. I haven't heard reports of any customers hitting a > blocked site that shouldn't have been (likewise with the filter trial we > recently had in Australia). > > I cannot see any advantage in publishing a list of sites that are banned. > That will only help the people that want to access such content. > > -- simon > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > -- Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." ~ Albert Einstein (1879-1955) Imagination is the Key to Success From Daemonax at orcon.net.nz Mon Jul 13 21:52:59 2009 From: Daemonax at orcon.net.nz (Daemonax) Date: Mon Jul 13 21:53:10 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring In-Reply-To: <333b9f7c0907130048t46c750f5m3a0ad9f061820163@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E01771A26@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <4d1940c20907121633p45b4ca03xd31a64821984c977@mail.gmail.com> <200907131642.16838.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> <4d1940c20907122226s45c37e3dm205e6b414f7e9e18@mail.gmail.com> <1247463898.9541.7.camel@studypad> <4d1940c20907122308q6ad9ac40sbaddc7de2b30612@mail.gmail.com> <333b9f7c0907130048t46c750f5m3a0ad9f061820163@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1247478779.11285.14.camel@studypad> On Mon, 2009-07-13 at 19:48 +1200, Ru wrote: > This is a very bad thing, Information should be freely available and not > filtered or blocked. > I understand that the argument on the government's side, is to help > stamp-out pedophilia > and bring those to justice who deal in this. We know morally that pedophilia > is wrong, Do we? The Greeks and Romans used to commonly have pederastic relationships. Harmodius and Aristogeiton were in a pederastic relationship with each other, and are remembered fondly for their tyrannicide. With regards to such sexual 'deviancy', I don't think our morals are hardwired. Beastiality on the other hand I think our repulsion to that is to a point hardwired into us, though it doesn't surprise me that there are people that engage in it. > It is a tragic thing to take the innocents of a child. Agreed... There is a problem though when things go beyond protecting children though. I know a few guys that are into certain types of anime art that involves very young looking anime girls. I find the stuff repulsive, but no-one is being harmed by them enjoying that stuff, yet I'm pretty sure that they're considered criminals in their countries. For me I think that censorship could be used for some good. Say for example if there was a suspected case of swine flu in a New Zealand community. I would understand if reporters were stopped from mentioning it for a certain amount of time (say 48 - 72 hours?) while work is done to try to confirm if there is a real problem. The reason I would be okay with this is because it would hopefully lessen the risk of panic based on nothing but rumour and suspicion. From nevynh at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 22:09:03 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Mon Jul 13 22:09:29 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring In-Reply-To: <4d1940c20907122226s45c37e3dm205e6b414f7e9e18@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E01771A26@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <4d1940c20907121633p45b4ca03xd31a64821984c977@mail.gmail.com> <200907131642.16838.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> <4d1940c20907122226s45c37e3dm205e6b414f7e9e18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 5:26 PM, Simon Green wrote: > 2009/7/13 Guy K. Kloss > > b) It cannot be circumvented unless you actively try and circumvent it. Isn't that the point though? I can't believe I'm about to say this, but think like someone who's into child pornography. You know what you're doing is illegal, and you know you've got to cover your tracks. Getting caught gets media attention, gets you onto a register and gets you jail time so you'd research this sort of thing. All filtering really stops is someone accidently stumbling onto such a site. This, although not the ideal, would at least keep people aware that there is a problem out there. While it was probably a couple of guys meeting in a park and exchanging photos, which was still a problem, that problem has been magnified due to the increased level of communication. TXT bullying anyone? How about that MySpace thing that ended up in a suicide? These sorts of problems have existed forever - it's just that the communication is so much more effective now. We should never forget that such problems exist. > In my opinion: Use the money more effectively by going after the bad guys, >> rather than trying to waterproof a fishing net. And keep your fingers clear >> of >> censorship, as that can strike back in a much worse way. >> > > And we all know how well that is working for music / movie > priarcy. Okay but piracy is a whole other bucket of fish. With piracy (damn I hate that word) it's about the artist's rights to control the content (or so the industry guys told us at the Copyright Forum). Child pornography is in a whole other ballpark. Okay - say I download a song. The recording industry have information on it, but is it worth taking me to court on the basis of a single song or even two? On the other hand, if I download an illegal video depicting acts with Children, I would sure as hell assume that I'd be charged on the strength of that single video file - that there would be just cause to check my hard drive and any other media I may have in my home to establish a pattern of behaviour. One's about cost, the other is morality. So I agree with Guy - go after the bad guys. Stop wasting resources on something that's not going to work. > Daemonax: I am pro-filter. Pro-filter is different than pro-censorship > though. A government controlled Internet filter[1] will only block material > that is already illegal to view in that country. I would be pro-filter if it wasn't for the fact that I feel that it's completely useless in terms of stopping the bad guys.... From nevynh at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 22:24:02 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Mon Jul 13 22:24:11 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Next meeting.... (for August) Message-ID: Hi Guys, I wouldn't normally post this early... or perhaps it's a good time to start posting on this.... Anyway... For my first time ever, someone has approached me and asked if they can present the next meeting. While I'd normally ask for consensus on who's interested, and all the rest of it, I think, given that Rob approached me about it, we should give him the floor, no argument and everyone can decide for themselves whether they're interested or not and indicate your interest by attending.... So, the subject matter is the openstreetmap project which is in very basic terms libre google maps type of project. You can have a look at it here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/ So... all we're lacking, is a venue - we've always got RvB as a fallback if need be... Regards, Nevyn. From blakjak at blakjak.net Mon Jul 13 22:27:21 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Mon Jul 13 22:27:40 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring Thread Message-ID: Folks Whilst I think it's great for LUG'rs to be 'informed' on this subject, I would like to officially discourage it from being pursued too far (at the philosophical level at least) on this forum. There's limited relevance to the GNU/Linux world in a technical sense; there's some at the ethical/philosophical level perhaps, but it is very much a political/ethical issue. For that reason i again encourage those with an interest to consider participating in discussions on the NZOSS discussion list. Apart from anything else there's some very good opinions flying around and I see the OpenChat list as being the place where many of these good opinions (and opinionators) can meet and mesh. The Society is in the position of actually being an appropriate group to take something resembling action on behalf of our FLOSS loving communities. :-) The NZOSS list has some serious experts in the area participating, and it'd be a real shame if an opportunity is lost due to the dilution of the discussion across several fora. Cheers Mark. (A list admin, but sharing a personal opinion.) From seth7f at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 22:05:05 2009 From: seth7f at gmail.com (Seth Fischer) Date: Mon Jul 13 22:29:32 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> Message-ID: <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> You're a few steps ahead of me :-) Do I need to configure /dev/console as a virtual console? Thanks for your help. Seth Daniel Pittman wrote: > Seth Fischer writes: > >> I've got a new VPS subscription running Ubuntu 7.10. Every time anacron runs >> a cron job I receive the following error messages: > > [...] > >> /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied >> >> Line 22 of /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh refers to /dev/console. Being a server >> it won't have a console (assuming console == monitor?). > > No. /dev/console refers to whatever Linux virtual console device you have > configured. By default that is the virtual terminals sitting on the VGA > device, but you can change it to whatever you want. > > Nothing in the system really cares if a *monitor* is plugged in, and > I strongly suspect your device has either a VGA compatible card or a serial > port somewhere inside. :) > >> What is the purpose of line22? Can I (or should I) replace /dev/console with >> /dev/null? > > No. The purpose of it is to write to the system console. Throwing away > errors wholesale is probably *not* what you want to do. > > Regards, > Daniel From nevynh at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 22:40:10 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Mon Jul 13 22:40:19 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Fair use (Nevyn) In-Reply-To: <6vptfo$5taild@smtp.mailfilter1.ihug.co.nz> References: <6vptfo$5taild@smtp.mailfilter1.ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 8:30 AM, Bob Harvey wrote: > Hi Nevyn, > > you said... >>>> > I know, I'm splitting hairs, but it's at the extremes that you see the > more interesting stuff happen. >>>> > Exactly. ?Which is why the establishment of some general principles might help the courts to unravel these sort of issues as they arise, rather than requiring legislators to anticipate every potential development of technology. ?And at very least, formal provision of the concept of 'fair use' would be a good start. > > Cheers, Bob. It was brought up at several points but the idea of fair use seemed to escape most of the people there. It seemed especially apt when Clare Curren pulled out a photocopied chapter from a book she'd been reading and read from it. Definitely fair use... From nevynh at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 22:45:04 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Mon Jul 13 22:45:33 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: More detailed email about Linux in Schools. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 12:49 AM, Nevyn wrote: > > Regards, > Nevyn. Wow! This thread is a whole lot quieter than I was anticipating. Regardless, it seems someone's been reading. There was this post on NZOSS about it: http://lists.nzoss.org.nz/pipermail/openchat/2009-July/002401.html My apologies for it being a bit of a novel. Regards, Nevyn. From shodan.triopt at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 00:55:06 2009 From: shodan.triopt at gmail.com (Bjoern Gross-Hohnacker) Date: Tue Jul 14 00:55:19 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring In-Reply-To: <4d1940c20907122226s45c37e3dm205e6b414f7e9e18@mail.gmail.com> References: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E01771A26@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> <4d1940c20907121633p45b4ca03xd31a64821984c977@mail.gmail.com> <200907131642.16838.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> <4d1940c20907122226s45c37e3dm205e6b414f7e9e18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5B2EAA.8010408@gmail.com> (A) The costs for this infrastructure seem to be quite high - for example here they are talking about 33.000.000 $ per year in Australia: [1]http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,25756003-15306,00 .html (B) besides of the the thing that someone obviously has to try to circumvent it - in Germany they have the glorious approach to block via DNS - so you could now argue if using a different DNS server is active circumvention or not. It seems that at least the system in NZ is a little more thought through. But still very easy to circumvent ... (C) I don't have any sources on issues that happened in Australia. There were things being mentioned in the German media about Australia as the stuff being posted on Wikileaks, Australia supposedly actually blocking Wikileaks for a while and some other things. A perfect example of misuse is currently actually happening in Germany. Now that the law is nearly completely passed several politicians get smart ideas what to censor next beside child porn. On top of the wish-list: violent computer games, right-wing political propaganda, illegal music/video portals, ... Just my 2ct: Censorship is great - governments just block all the stuff they don't like, non technical people who believe in that will think the world is a safer place because they can't access the bad things (the ones they did not want to see in the first place - now maybe if they can't see it at all, it has vanished), people who want the illegal stuff will just as easy find a way to get it - everyone is happy. Also the censorship infrastructure obviously gives you great other ways of use if someone puts enough thought into it. I just find it slightly ironic that countries like China and Iran were for years blamed on undermining the freedom of speech when they are using censorship. Well, I guess in that they were just ahead of their time (yea I know - they don't only censor the internet)... Simon Green wrote: 2009/7/13 Guy K. Kloss [2] This discussion has just gone through Germany, who have just passed (unfortunately) a law on filtering. The problem with this whole stuff is that it is (A) very expensive, and (B) not very reliable as it can easily be circumvented, and (C) there is too much lee way for misuse of censoring (as has happened in Oz). In the discussion it was also mentioned that some study a) I have no idea in costs, but I'm sure it is not very expensive. Countries like the UK have implemented without cost increases (but then maybe the tax payer is footing the bill). b) It cannot be circumvented unless you actively try and circumvent it. c) Can you explain about the misuse of censoring in Australia? We haven't implemented government (ACMA) controlled censoring here (yet). Some trials with smaller ISPs have taken place, and the government will be releasing its reporting either next month or September. I haven't read any reports of these trials being misused. There was a reported ACMA list on Wikileaks, but that has turned out to be false. I haven't seen any official reports that our compolsory censor is going to be misused (i.e.block any thing other than illegal content). In my opinion: Use the money more effectively by going after the bad guys, rather than trying to waterproof a fishing net. And keep your fingers clear of censorship, as that can strike back in a much worse way. And we all know how well that is working for music / movie priarcy. Daemonax: I am pro-filter. Pro-filter is different than pro-censorship though. A government controlled Internet filter[1] will only block material that is already illegal to view in that country. -- simon [1] I'm of course excluding countries like China and others that delibrately block more than illegal material from this list. _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list [3]AuckLUG@linux.net.nz [4]http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug References 1. http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,25756003-15306,00.html 2. mailto:g.kloss@massey.ac.nz 3. mailto:AuckLUG@linux.net.nz 4. http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 13:14:30 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 14 13:14:42 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Next meeting.... (for August) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 10:24 PM, Nevyn wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I wouldn't normally post this early... or perhaps it's a good time to > start posting on this.... > > Anyway... For my first time ever, someone has approached me and asked > if they can present the next meeting. While I'd normally ask for > consensus on who's interested, and all the rest of it, I think, given > that Rob approached me about it, we should give him the floor, no > argument and everyone can decide for themselves whether they're > interested or not and indicate your interest by attending.... > > So, the subject matter is the openstreetmap project which is in very > basic terms libre google maps type of project. You can have a look at > it here: > http://www.openstreetmap.org/ > > So... all we're lacking, is a venue - we've always got RvB as a > fallback if need be... > > Regards, > Nevyn. Rob did ask me to open this up for discussion - it's not strictly Linux. More about open data I think. Personally I don't see this as too much of a problem as: a) a few years ago we had a presentation on GIS which was along the same sort of lines. Not strictly Linux and about open data to some extent. b) With Google Chrome OS being a web based OS (i.e. mainly a browser), there's going to be more emphasis on web applications in the foreseeable future. This is kind of cool in that there's already a myriad of web developers out there getting comfortable with (I hesitate to put it quite in these terms but) Web 2.0. (Does anyone know the release date on Web 2.1?) Regards, Nevyn. From daniel at rimspace.net Tue Jul 14 13:28:54 2009 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Tue Jul 14 13:29:12 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> (Seth Fischer's message of "Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:05:05 +1200") References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> Seth Fischer writes: G'day Seth. > You're a few steps ahead of me :-) > Do I need to configure /dev/console as a virtual console? No, it should happen by "magic" ? specifically, the kernel automatically makes "/dev/console" an "alias" for whatever the console is, and it has a list it uses by default. The most likely cause is that whatever is trying to log to /dev/console doesn't have permissions ? they are restricted to root only, by default, because being able to read /dev/console means having access to potentially privileged information. So, which anacron job causes this, or is it all of them? What is /dev/console; just ls -l should be sufficient. Regards, Daniel -- ? Daniel Pittman ? daniel@rimspace.net ? +61 401 155 707 ? made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons From seth7f at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 17:27:35 2009 From: seth7f at gmail.com (Seth Fischer) Date: Tue Jul 14 17:22:36 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> Message-ID: <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> Hi Daniel, /dev$ ls -l | grep console crw------- 1 root tty 5, 1 2009-03-24 14:37 console prw-r----- 1 syslog adm 0 2009-03-24 14:38 xconsole The errors are caused by /etc/cron.daily/logrotate and /etc/cron.daily/sysklogd /etc/cron.daily$ ls -l total 4 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 89 2008-10-10 10:25 logrotate -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 1400 2009-05-03 17:15 sysklogd /etc/cron.daily/logrotate: /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied /etc/cron.daily/sysklogd: /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied Cheers, Seth Daniel Pittman wrote: > Seth Fischer writes: > > G'day Seth. > >> You're a few steps ahead of me :-) >> Do I need to configure /dev/console as a virtual console? > > No, it should happen by "magic" ? specifically, the kernel automatically makes > "/dev/console" an "alias" for whatever the console is, and it has a list it > uses by default. > > The most likely cause is that whatever is trying to log to /dev/console > doesn't have permissions ? they are restricted to root only, by default, > because being able to read /dev/console means having access to potentially > privileged information. > > > So, which anacron job causes this, or is it all of them? > What is /dev/console; just ls -l should be sufficient. > > Regards, > Daniel > From daniel at rimspace.net Tue Jul 14 18:09:18 2009 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Tue Jul 14 18:09:35 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> (Seth Fischer's message of "Tue, 14 Jul 2009 17:27:35 +1200") References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> Seth Fischer writes: > /dev$ ls -l | grep console > crw------- 1 root tty 5, 1 2009-03-24 14:37 console Well, that is what it should be. [...] > The errors are caused by /etc/cron.daily/logrotate and > /etc/cron.daily/sysklogd [...] > /etc/cron.daily/logrotate: > /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied > /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied > /etc/cron.daily/sysklogd: > /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied > /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied Hmm. What happens when, as root, you run: echo foo > /dev/console That /should/ return without error; it certainly does for me. Regards, Daniel -- ? Daniel Pittman ? daniel@rimspace.net ? +61 401 155 707 ? made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons From seth7f at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 19:33:46 2009 From: seth7f at gmail.com (Seth Fischer) Date: Tue Jul 14 19:28:39 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> Message-ID: <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> > Seth Fischer writes: > >> /dev$ ls -l | grep console >> crw------- 1 root tty 5, 1 2009-03-24 14:37 console > > Well, that is what it should be. > > [...] > >> The errors are caused by /etc/cron.daily/logrotate and >> /etc/cron.daily/sysklogd > > [...] > >> /etc/cron.daily/logrotate: >> /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied >> /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied >> /etc/cron.daily/sysklogd: >> /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied >> /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 22: /dev/console: Permission denied > > Hmm. What happens when, as root, you run: > > echo foo > /dev/console > > That /should/ return without error; it certainly does for me. > > Regards, > Daniel > I get an error! ~$ echo foo > /dev/console -bash: /dev/console: Permission denied Thanks Seth From kiirani at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 20:52:24 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Tue Jul 14 20:52:36 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2494ad260907140152j649993c0id2cd101826374ca4@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/14 Seth Fischer : > I get an error! > > ~$ echo foo > /dev/console > -bash: /dev/console: Permission denied > > Thanks > Seth This may well be a stupid suggestion, but is it possible your /dev/ is read-only, and you can't write to ANYTHING... but /dev/console is the only one that you've noticed? Have you tried writing something to /dev/null? From seth7f at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 21:47:50 2009 From: seth7f at gmail.com (Seth Fischer) Date: Tue Jul 14 21:42:44 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <2494ad260907140152j649993c0id2cd101826374ca4@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> <2494ad260907140152j649993c0id2cd101826374ca4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5C5446.7040108@gmail.com> > 2009/7/14 Seth Fischer : >> I get an error! >> >> ~$ echo foo > /dev/console >> -bash: /dev/console: Permission denied >> >> Thanks >> Seth > > This may well be a stupid suggestion, but is it possible your /dev/ is > read-only, and you can't write to ANYTHING... but /dev/console is the > only one that you've noticed? > Have you tried writing something to /dev/null? > /$ echo foo > /dev/null /$ echo $? 0 /$ ls -l | grep dev drwxr-xr-x 4 root root 2048 2009-04-19 00:34 dev /dev$ ls -l | grep null crw-rw-rw- 1 root root 1, 3 2009-03-24 14:37 null $ ls -l | grep console crw------- 1 root tty 5, 1 2009-03-24 14:37 console Should I sudo chmod g+rw,o+rw /dev/console ? Regards, Seth From daniel at rimspace.net Tue Jul 14 23:33:34 2009 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Tue Jul 14 23:33:55 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <2494ad260907140152j649993c0id2cd101826374ca4@mail.gmail.com> (Kennedy Skelton's message of "Tue, 14 Jul 2009 20:52:24 +1200") References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> <2494ad260907140152j649993c0id2cd101826374ca4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87ab374hyp.fsf@rimspace.net> Kennedy Skelton writes: > 2009/7/14 Seth Fischer : >> I get an error! >> >> ~$ echo foo > /dev/console >> -bash: /dev/console: Permission denied > > This may well be a stupid suggestion, but is it possible your /dev/ is > read-only, and you can't write to ANYTHING... but /dev/console is the only > one that you've noticed? Have you tried writing something to /dev/null? That would only influence attempts to change the directory, not the content of the directory; those permissions are controlled by the individual inodes. Good thought, though. Regards, Daniel -- ? Daniel Pittman ? daniel@rimspace.net ? +61 401 155 707 ? made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons From daniel at rimspace.net Tue Jul 14 23:35:43 2009 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Tue Jul 14 23:36:10 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> (Seth Fischer's message of "Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:33:46 +1200") References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8763dv4hv4.fsf@rimspace.net> Seth Fischer writes: >> Seth Fischer writes: [...] > I get an error! > > ~$ echo foo > /dev/console > -bash: /dev/console: Permission denied OK. Well, that suggests something is rather strange on your system. Are you running under a virtual environment like the Linux VServer, OpenVZ or Virtuozzo container systems? Oh. Are you running SELinux? That might, I suppose, also block access to the device through the MAC labels, which might turn up this way. Outside of those, I fear, I don't know where to go next: assuming no kernel errors, as far as I know this shouldn't happen.[1] Regards, Daniel Footnotes: [1] Obviously it is, but I don't know where to go next, sorry. :/ -- ? Daniel Pittman ? daniel@rimspace.net ? +61 401 155 707 ? made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons From c.mills at auckland.ac.nz Wed Jul 15 04:50:05 2009 From: c.mills at auckland.ac.nz (Clark Mills) Date: Wed Jul 15 04:47:33 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <4A5C5446.7040108@gmail.com> References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> <2494ad260907140152j649993c0id2cd101826374ca4@mail.gmail.com> <4A5C5446.7040108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5CB73D.7080505@auckland.ac.nz> Seth Fischer wrote: > $ ls -l | grep console > crw------- 1 root tty 5, 1 2009-03-24 14:37 console Hi Seth. Just observations on my part on my machine running CentOS 5.3. Kind regards... Clark =========================================================== $ ls -l /dev/console crw------- 1 cmills root 5, 1 Jul 14 19:34 /dev/console $ grep console /etc/pam.d/login session optional pam_console.so $ man pam_console pam_console(8) System Administrator?s Manual pam_console(8) NAME pam_console - determine user owning the system console SYNOPSIS session optional pam_console.so auth required pam_console.so DESCRIPTION pam_console.so is designed to give users at the physical console (virtual terminals and local xdm-managed X ses- sions by default, but that is configurable) capabilities that they would not otherwise have, and to take those capabilities away when the are no longer logged in at the console. It provides two main kinds of capabili- ties: file permissions and authentication. When a user logs in at the console and no other user is currently logged in at the console, pam_console.so will run handler programs specified in the file /etc/secu- rity/console.handlers such as pam_console_apply which changes permissions and ownership of files as described in the file /etc/security/console.perms. That user may then log in on other terminals that are considered part of the console, and as long as the user is still logged in at any one of those terminals, that user will own those devices. When the user logs out of the last ter- minal, the console may be taken by the next user to log in. Other users who have logged in at the console dur- ing the time that the first user was logged in will not be given ownership of the devices unless they log in on one of the terminals; having done so on any one termi- nal, the next user will own those devices until he or she has logged out of every terminal that is part of the physical console. Then the race can start for the next user. In practice, this is not a problem; the physical console is not generally in use by many people at the same time, and pam_console.so just tries to do the right thing in weird cases. ... From nevynh at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 11:44:21 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Wed Jul 15 11:44:28 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Seth Fischer wrote: >> Hmm. ?What happens when, as root, you run: >> >> ? ?echo foo > /dev/console >> >> That /should/ return without error; it certainly does for me. >> >> Regards, >> ? ? ? ?Daniel >> > > I get an error! > > ~$ echo foo > /dev/console > -bash: /dev/console: Permission denied > > Thanks > Seth Hi Seth - you didn't really follow Daniels instructions here. He did say "as root". Regards, Nevyn. From boxen_foxen at maddaz.com Wed Jul 15 18:35:43 2009 From: boxen_foxen at maddaz.com (Boxen Foxen) Date: Wed Jul 15 18:35:53 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Next meeting.... (for August) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <862861130907142335y4538f3b9o9ec0542090ed348b@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 10:24 PM, Nevyn wrote: > Hi Guys, > > I wouldn't normally post this early... or perhaps it's a good time to > start posting on this.... > > Anyway... For my first time ever, someone has approached me and asked > if they can present the next meeting. While I'd normally ask for > consensus on who's interested, and all the rest of it, I think, given > that Rob approached me about it, we should give him the floor, no > argument and everyone can decide for themselves whether they're > interested or not and indicate your interest by attending.... > > So, the subject matter is the openstreetmap project which is in very > basic terms libre google maps type of project. You can have a look at > it here: > http://www.openstreetmap.org/ > > So... all we're lacking, is a venue - we've always got RvB as a > fallback if need be... > > Regards, > Nevyn. Sounds interesting, though if their website would actually load in under 5 mins ... Is that the only topic on the agenda? From jis at quicksilver.net.nz Wed Jul 15 21:57:22 2009 From: jis at quicksilver.net.nz (jis@quicksilver.net.nz) Date: Wed Jul 15 21:57:32 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Accessing Windows drives from Kubuntu Message-ID: <4A5E50C2.1675.246DA05@jis.quicksilver.net.nz> I installed VMware Server 1 and then installed a Kubuntu virtual machine. How do I access Windows drives on the computer and on my Windows network from Kubuntu? The help documents weren't much help to me in that regard. Don Johnston From david.roberts at safecom.co.nz Wed Jul 15 23:23:32 2009 From: david.roberts at safecom.co.nz (David Roberts) Date: Wed Jul 15 23:23:48 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Accessing Windows drives from Kubuntu In-Reply-To: <4A5E50C2.1675.246DA05@jis.quicksilver.net.nz> References: <4A5E50C2.1675.246DA05@jis.quicksilver.net.nz> Message-ID: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E01771BBB@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> Hi Don, The latest Kubuntu has a file browser called dolphin. Open that up and there should be a tab on the side which says network, in here is a link to samba shares (this is what windows network shares are called in the Linux world) and you should be able to browse to your workgroup and any windows shares on the network. The easiest way of sharing from your Windows VM Host is to make network shares and access them on your VM Guest (Kubuntu) the same as above. :) Hope that does the trick, Kubuntu is my fav distro right now (coupled with the launchpad repos for KDE and amarok), I hope you enjoy it too. Dave -----Original Message----- From: aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz [mailto:aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz] On Behalf Of jis@quicksilver.net.nz Sent: Wednesday, 15 July 2009 9:57 p.m. To: aucklug@linux.net.nz Subject: [AuckLUG] Accessing Windows drives from Kubuntu I installed VMware Server 1 and then installed a Kubuntu virtual machine. How do I access Windows drives on the computer and on my Windows network from Kubuntu? The help documents weren't much help to me in that regard. Don Johnston _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug ##################################################################################### Important: This electronic message and attachments (if any) are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient do not copy, disclose or use the contents in any way. Please let us know by return e-mail immediately and then destroy this message. ##################################################################################### From nevynh at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 00:14:48 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Thu Jul 16 00:14:58 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Next meeting.... (for August) In-Reply-To: <862861130907142335y4538f3b9o9ec0542090ed348b@mail.gmail.com> References: <862861130907142335y4538f3b9o9ec0542090ed348b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Boxen Foxen wrote: > On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 10:24 PM, Nevyn wrote: > >> Hi Guys, >> >> I wouldn't normally post this early... or perhaps it's a good time to >> start posting on this.... >> >> Anyway... For my first time ever, someone has approached me and asked >> if they can present the next meeting. While I'd normally ask for >> consensus on who's interested, and all the rest of it, I think, given >> that Rob approached me about it, we should give him the floor, no >> argument and everyone can decide for themselves whether they're >> interested or not and indicate your interest by attending.... >> >> So, the subject matter is the openstreetmap project which is in very >> basic terms libre google maps type of project. You can have a look at >> it here: >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/ >> >> So... all we're lacking, is a venue - we've always got RvB as a >> fallback if need be... >> >> Regards, >> Nevyn. > > > Sounds interesting, though if their website would actually load in under 5 > mins ... > > Is that the only topic on the agenda? At the moment - unless you've got other ideas. It all depends on how big the topic is. I'll also be organising some sort of meeting around the Linux at Schools stuff sometime next month as well. From seth7f at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 08:12:26 2009 From: seth7f at gmail.com (Seth Fischer) Date: Thu Jul 16 08:07:18 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5E382A.5040703@gmail.com> Nevyn wrote: > On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Seth Fischer wrote: >>> Hmm. What happens when, as root, you run: >>> >>> echo foo > /dev/console >>> >>> That /should/ return without error; it certainly does for me. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Daniel >>> >> I get an error! >> >> ~$ echo foo > /dev/console >> -bash: /dev/console: Permission denied >> >> Thanks >> Seth > > Hi Seth - you didn't really follow Daniels instructions here. He did > say "as root". > > Regards, > Nevyn. > You're right Nevyn. I've followed Martin's informative tutorial: ~$ sudo bash -c 'echo foo > /dev/console' [sudo] password for x: bash: /dev/console: Permission denied It's a Virtuozzo container system managed by Openhost. Guess I'll contact their help desk and see what they make of it. If I find a solution I'll inform the list. Thanks and regards, Seth From g.kloss at massey.ac.nz Thu Jul 16 09:32:34 2009 From: g.kloss at massey.ac.nz (Guy K. Kloss) Date: Thu Jul 16 09:32:24 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Internet Censoring In-Reply-To: <4d1940c20907122226s45c37e3dm205e6b414f7e9e18@mail.gmail.com> References: <200907131642.16838.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> <4d1940c20907122226s45c37e3dm205e6b414f7e9e18@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200907160932.34484.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 17:26:08 Simon Green wrote: > a) I have no idea in costs, but I'm sure it is not very expensive. > Countries like the UK have implemented without cost increases (but then > maybe the tax payer is footing the bill). "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." -- Robert A. Heinlein, The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress > b) It cannot be circumvented unless you actively try and circumvent it. So if one is eager to get a "clean" web for home, install a personal web washer proxy. > c) Can you explain about the misuse of censoring in Australia? We haven't > implemented government (ACMA) controlled censoring here (yet). Some trials > with smaller ISPs have taken place, and the government will be releasing > its reporting either next month or September. I haven't read any reports of > these trials being misused. There was a reported ACMA list on Wikileaks, > but that has turned out to be false. I haven't seen any official reports > that our compolsory censor is going to be misused (i.e.block any thing > other than illegal content). I can't vouch for its 100% accuracy, but the NZ Herald also mentions it today in its article: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/technology/news/article.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10584710 And these types of censorship means in place quickly whet the appetite for further filtering action beyond the initial target of sexually abusive material. Just my 2 cents, Guy -- Guy K. Kloss Institute of Information and Mathematical Sciences Te Kura P?taiao o M?hiohio me P?ngarau Massey University, Albany (North Shore City, Auckland) 473 State Highway 17, Gate 1, Mailroom, Quad B Building voice: +64 9 414-0800 ext. 9585 fax: +64 9 441-8181 G.Kloss@massey.ac.nz http://www.massey.ac.nz/~gkloss From zed at zed.net.nz Thu Jul 16 10:15:48 2009 From: zed at zed.net.nz (zed) Date: Thu Jul 16 10:15:59 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] MySQL help wanted,,, Message-ID: Is there anyone on the list conversant with MySQL because, despite playing around for some considerable time, I've run out of ideas. I have recently downloaded a program called VetTux. My intention was to learn how to drive it so that, at some time, I could persuade my vet to transfer his card index records to computer. The program uses MySQL, so I installed the MySQL Client and Server on my computer, which runs LinuxMint v7.0. When asked for a Password near the end of the installation, I chose to leave the writable icon blank. I am the only person using this computer. Using the instructions provided on the VetTux website, the installation was successful. However, trying to set up a database, I get the following error: The VetTux database could not be created as it was unable to connect to MySQL server using the details provided. This wizard has no option but to terminate. I then went to a Terminal and the result of my various tries to resolve the issue are shown in the terminal output below. zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'zed'@'localhost' (using password: NO) zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql -p Enter password: ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'zed'@'localhost' (using password: YES) zed@zed-desktop ~ $ sudo -s zed-desktop ~ # mysql -p Enter password: Welcome to the MySQL monitor. Commands end with ; or \g. Your MySQL connection id is 37 Server version: 5.0.75-0ubuntu10.2 (Ubuntu) Type 'help;' or '\h' for help. Type '\c' to clear the buffer. mysql> \h For information about MySQL products and services, visit: http://www.mysql.com/ For developer information, including the MySQL Reference Manual, visit: http://dev.mysql.com/ To buy MySQL Network Support, training, or other products, visit: https://shop.mysql.com/ List of all MySQL commands: Note that all text commands must be first on line and end with ';' ? (\?) Synonym for `help'. clear (\c) Clear command. connect (\r) Reconnect to the server. Optional arguments are db and host. delimiter (\d) Set statement delimiter. NOTE: Takes the rest of the line as new delimiter. edit (\e) Edit command with $EDITOR. ego (\G) Send command to mysql server, display result vertically. exit (\q) Exit mysql. Same as quit. go (\g) Send command to mysql server. help (\h) Display this help. nopager (\n) Disable pager, print to stdout. notee (\t) Don't write into outfile. pager (\P) Set PAGER [to_pager]. Print the query results via PAGER. print (\p) Print current command. prompt (\R) Change your mysql prompt. quit (\q) Quit mysql. rehash (\#) Rebuild completion hash. source (\.) Execute an SQL script file. Takes a file name as an argument. status (\s) Get status information from the server. system (\!) Execute a system shell command. tee (\T) Set outfile [to_outfile]. Append everything into given outfile. use (\u) Use another database. Takes database name as argument. charset (\C) Switch to another charset. Might be needed for processing binlog with multi-byte charsets. warnings (\W) Show warnings after every statement. nowarning (\w) Don't show warnings after every statement. For server side help, type 'help contents' mysql> \s -------------- mysql Ver 14.12 Distrib 5.0.75, for debian-linux-gnu (i486) using readline 5.2 Connection id: 37 Current database: Current user: root@localhost SSL: Not in use Current pager: stdout Using outfile: '' UsIs there anyone on the list conversant with MySQL because, despite playing around for some considerable time, I've run out of ideas. I have recently downloaded a program called VetTux. My intention was to learn how to drive it so that, at some time, I could persuade my vet to transfer his card index records to computer. The program uses MySQL, so I installed the MySQL Client and Server on my computer, which runs LinuxMint v7.0. When asked for a Password near the end of the installation, I chose to leave the writable icon blank. I am the only person using this computer. Using the instructions provided on the VetTux website, the installation was successful. However, trying to set up a database, I get the following error: The VetTux database could not be created as it was unable to connect to MySQL server using the details provided. This wizard has no option but to terminate. I then went to a Terminal and the result of my various tries to resolve the issue are shown in the terminal output below. zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'zed'@'localhost' (using password: NO) zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql -p Enter password: ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'zed'@'localhost' (using password: YES) zed@zed-desktop ~ $ sudo -s zed-desktop ~ # mysql -p Enter password: Welcome to the MySQL monitor. Commands end with ; or \g. Your MySQL connection id is 37 Server version: 5.0.75-0ubuntu10.2 (Ubuntu) Type 'help;' or '\h' for help. Type '\c' to clear the buffer. mysql> \h For information about MySQL products and services, visit: http://www.mysql.com/ For developer information, including the MySQL Reference Manual, visit: http://dev.mysql.com/ To buy MySQL Network Support, training, or other products, visit: https://shop.mysql.com/ List of all MySQL commands: Note that all text commands must be first on line and end with ';' ? (\?) Synonym for `help'. clear (\c) Clear command. connect (\r) Reconnect to the server. Optional arguments are db and host. delimiter (\d) Set statement delimiter. NOTE: Takes the rest of the line as new delimiter. edit (\e) Edit command with $EDITOR. ego (\G) Send command to mysql server, display result vertically. exit (\q) Exit mysql. Same as quit. go (\g) Send command to mysql server. help (\h) Display this help. nopager (\n) Disable pager, print to stdout. notee (\t) Don't write into outfile. pager (\P) Set PAGER [to_pager]. Print the query results via PAGER. print (\p) Print current command. prompt (\R) Change your mysql prompt. quit (\q) Quit mysql. rehash (\#) Rebuild completion hash. source (\.) Execute an SQL script file. Takes a file name as an argument. status (\s) Get status information from the server. system (\!) Execute a system shell command. tee (\T) Set outfile [to_outfile]. Append everything into given outfile. use (\u) Use another database. Takes database name as argument. charset (\C) Switch to another charset. Might be needed for processing binlog with multi-byte charsets. warnings (\W) Show warnings after every statement. nowarning (\w) Don't show warnings after every statement. For server side help, type 'help contents' mysql> \s -------------- mysql Ver 14.12 Distrib 5.0.75, for debian-linux-gnu (i486) using readline 5.2 Connection id: 37 Current database: Current user: root@localhost SSL: Not in use Current pager: stdout Using outfile: '' Using delimiter: ; Server version: 5.0.75-0ubuntu10.2 (Ubuntu) Protocol version: 10 Connection: Localhost via UNIX socket Server characterset: latin1 Db characterset: latin1 Client characterset: latin1 Conn. characterset: latin1 UNIX socket: /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock Uptime: 2 hours 51 min 56 sec Threads: 1 Questions: 90 Slow queries: 0 Opens: 23 Flush tables: 3 Open tables: 0 Queries per second avg: 0.009 -------------- mysql> \go dbVetTux ERROR: No query specified -> -> \quit Bye zed-desktop ~ # Is there a member on the list able to tell me what monumental error I may have made, please? ing delimiter: ; Server version: 5.0.75-0ubuntu10.2 (Ubuntu) Protocol version: 10 Connection: Localhost via UNIX socket Server characterset: latin1 Db characterset: latin1 Client characterset: latin1 Conn. characterset: latin1 UNIX socket: /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock Uptime: 2 hours 51 min 56 sec Threads: 1 Questions: 90 Slow queries: 0 Opens: 23 Flush tables: 3 Open tables: 0 Queries per second avg: 0.009 -------------- mysql> \go dbVetTux ERROR: No query specified -> -> \quit Bye zed-desktop ~ # Is there a member on the list able to tell me what monumental error I may have made, please? -- zed From juanvr at live.com Thu Jul 16 10:29:44 2009 From: juanvr at live.com (Juan .) Date: Thu Jul 16 10:30:56 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] MySQL help wanted,,, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Zed, My guess is that you didn't specify a password for your MySQL database/user. This is pretty essential from a security and management perspective. (Especially since you're trying to transfer critical data to it as well) I'd recommend starting from scratch, setting up user/database credentials properly. VetTux should be able to connect to it once you have the correct details, and you should be away. My 2c. > Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 10:15:48 +1200 > From: zed@zed.net.nz > To: aucklug@linux.net.nz > Subject: [AuckLUG] MySQL help wanted,,, > > Is there anyone on the list conversant with MySQL because, despite playing > around for some considerable time, I've run out of ideas. > > I have recently downloaded a program called VetTux. My intention was to > learn how to drive it so that, at some time, I could persuade my vet to > transfer his card index records to computer. The program uses MySQL, so I > installed the MySQL Client and Server on my computer, which runs LinuxMint > v7.0. When asked for a Password near the end of the installation, I chose > to leave the writable icon blank. I am the only person using this computer. > > Using the instructions provided on the VetTux website, the installation was > successful. However, trying to set up a database, I get the following > error: > > The VetTux database could not be created as it was unable to connect to > MySQL server using the details provided. This wizard has no option but to > terminate. > > I then went to a Terminal and the result of my various tries to resolve the > issue are shown in the terminal output below. > > zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql > ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'zed'@'localhost' (using > password: NO) > zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql -p > Enter password: > ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'zed'@'localhost' (using > password: YES) > zed@zed-desktop ~ $ sudo -s > zed-desktop ~ # mysql -p > Enter password: > Welcome to the MySQL monitor. Commands end with ; or \g. > Your MySQL connection id is 37 > Server version: 5.0.75-0ubuntu10.2 (Ubuntu) > > Type 'help;' or '\h' for help. Type '\c' to clear the buffer. > > mysql> \h > > For information about MySQL products and services, visit: > http://www.mysql.com/ > For developer information, including the MySQL Reference Manual, visit: > http://dev.mysql.com/ > To buy MySQL Network Support, training, or other products, visit: > https://shop.mysql.com/ > > List of all MySQL commands: > Note that all text commands must be first on line and end with ';' > ? (\?) Synonym for `help'. > clear (\c) Clear command. > connect (\r) Reconnect to the server. Optional arguments are db and host. > delimiter (\d) Set statement delimiter. NOTE: Takes the rest of the line as > new delimiter. > edit (\e) Edit command with $EDITOR. > ego (\G) Send command to mysql server, display result vertically. > exit (\q) Exit mysql. Same as quit. > go (\g) Send command to mysql server. > help (\h) Display this help. > nopager (\n) Disable pager, print to stdout. > notee (\t) Don't write into outfile. > pager (\P) Set PAGER [to_pager]. Print the query results via PAGER. > print (\p) Print current command. > prompt (\R) Change your mysql prompt. > quit (\q) Quit mysql. > rehash (\#) Rebuild completion hash. > source (\.) Execute an SQL script file. Takes a file name as an argument. > status (\s) Get status information from the server. > system (\!) Execute a system shell command. > tee (\T) Set outfile [to_outfile]. Append everything into given > outfile. > use (\u) Use another database. Takes database name as argument. > charset (\C) Switch to another charset. Might be needed for processing > binlog with multi-byte charsets. > warnings (\W) Show warnings after every statement. > nowarning (\w) Don't show warnings after every statement. > > For server side help, type 'help contents' > > mysql> \s > -------------- > mysql Ver 14.12 Distrib 5.0.75, for debian-linux-gnu (i486) using readline > 5.2 > > Connection id: 37 > Current database: > Current user: root@localhost > SSL: Not in use > Current pager: stdout > Using outfile: '' > UsIs there anyone on the list conversant with MySQL because, despite playing > around for some considerable time, I've run out of ideas. > > I have recently downloaded a program called VetTux. My intention was to > learn how to drive it so that, at some time, I could persuade my vet to > transfer his card index records to computer. The program uses MySQL, so I > installed the MySQL Client and Server on my computer, which runs LinuxMint > v7.0. When asked for a Password near the end of the installation, I chose > to leave the writable icon blank. I am the only person using this computer. > > Using the instructions provided on the VetTux website, the installation was > successful. However, trying to set up a database, I get the following > error: > > The VetTux database could not be created as it was unable to connect to > MySQL server using the details provided. This wizard has no option but to > terminate. > > I then went to a Terminal and the result of my various tries to resolve the > issue are shown in the terminal output below. > > zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql > ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'zed'@'localhost' (using > password: NO) > zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql -p > Enter password: > ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'zed'@'localhost' (using > password: YES) > zed@zed-desktop ~ $ sudo -s > zed-desktop ~ # mysql -p > Enter password: > Welcome to the MySQL monitor. Commands end with ; or \g. > Your MySQL connection id is 37 > Server version: 5.0.75-0ubuntu10.2 (Ubuntu) > > Type 'help;' or '\h' for help. Type '\c' to clear the buffer. > > mysql> \h > > For information about MySQL products and services, visit: > http://www.mysql.com/ > For developer information, including the MySQL Reference Manual, visit: > http://dev.mysql.com/ > To buy MySQL Network Support, training, or other products, visit: > https://shop.mysql.com/ > > List of all MySQL commands: > Note that all text commands must be first on line and end with ';' > ? (\?) Synonym for `help'. > clear (\c) Clear command. > connect (\r) Reconnect to the server. Optional arguments are db and host. > delimiter (\d) Set statement delimiter. NOTE: Takes the rest of the line as > new delimiter. > edit (\e) Edit command with $EDITOR. > ego (\G) Send command to mysql server, display result vertically. > exit (\q) Exit mysql. Same as quit. > go (\g) Send command to mysql server. > help (\h) Display this help. > nopager (\n) Disable pager, print to stdout. > notee (\t) Don't write into outfile. > pager (\P) Set PAGER [to_pager]. Print the query results via PAGER. > print (\p) Print current command. > prompt (\R) Change your mysql prompt. > quit (\q) Quit mysql. > rehash (\#) Rebuild completion hash. > source (\.) Execute an SQL script file. Takes a file name as an argument. > status (\s) Get status information from the server. > system (\!) Execute a system shell command. > tee (\T) Set outfile [to_outfile]. Append everything into given > outfile. > use (\u) Use another database. Takes database name as argument. > charset (\C) Switch to another charset. Might be needed for processing > binlog with multi-byte charsets. > warnings (\W) Show warnings after every statement. > nowarning (\w) Don't show warnings after every statement. > > For server side help, type 'help contents' > > mysql> \s > -------------- > mysql Ver 14.12 Distrib 5.0.75, for debian-linux-gnu (i486) using readline > 5.2 > > Connection id: 37 > Current database: > Current user: root@localhost > SSL: Not in use > Current pager: stdout > Using outfile: '' > Using delimiter: ; > Server version: 5.0.75-0ubuntu10.2 (Ubuntu) > Protocol version: 10 > Connection: Localhost via UNIX socket > Server characterset: latin1 > Db characterset: latin1 > Client characterset: latin1 > Conn. characterset: latin1 > UNIX socket: /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock > Uptime: 2 hours 51 min 56 sec > > Threads: 1 Questions: 90 Slow queries: 0 Opens: 23 Flush tables: 3 Open > tables: 0 Queries per second avg: 0.009 > -------------- > > mysql> \go dbVetTux > ERROR: > No query specified > > -> > -> \quit > Bye > zed-desktop ~ # > > Is there a member on the list able to tell me what monumental error I may > have made, please? > ing delimiter: ; > Server version: 5.0.75-0ubuntu10.2 (Ubuntu) > Protocol version: 10 > Connection: Localhost via UNIX socket > Server characterset: latin1 > Db characterset: latin1 > Client characterset: latin1 > Conn. characterset: latin1 > UNIX socket: /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock > Uptime: 2 hours 51 min 56 sec > > Threads: 1 Questions: 90 Slow queries: 0 Opens: 23 Flush tables: 3 Open > tables: 0 Queries per second avg: 0.009 > -------------- > > mysql> \go dbVetTux > ERROR: > No query specified > > -> > -> \quit > Bye > zed-desktop ~ # > > Is there a member on the list able to tell me what monumental error I may > have made, please? > > -- > zed > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug _________________________________________________________________ Looking for a place to manage all your online stuff? Explore the new Windows Live http://download.live.com From nevynh at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 10:36:01 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Thu Jul 16 10:36:10 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] MySQL help wanted,,, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Juan . wrote: > > Hi Zed, > > My guess is that you didn't specify a password for your MySQL database/user. > > This is pretty essential from a security and management perspective. (Especially since you're trying to transfer critical data to it as well) > > I'd recommend starting from scratch, setting up user/database credentials properly. > > VetTux should be able to connect to it once you have the correct details, and you should be away. > > My 2c. Worse than that... The user account zed doesn't yet have an account in the database and vetTux is trying to use the zed account to set up the mysql database. So two alternatives. Try setting up vetTux again only as root this time or add a "zed" account. Regards, Nevyn. From pieter at insync.za.net Thu Jul 16 10:36:32 2009 From: pieter at insync.za.net (Pieter De Wit) Date: Thu Jul 16 10:36:34 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] MySQL help wanted,,, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Zed, The first attempt is using your current username, not root. MySQL has been setup to allow the root user to connect from the localhost using no password. I would suggest getting something like webmin or phpmyadmin (name ?) running to help you setup local users. As for the install - tell the app to use the username root and the password as blank and all should be ok :) Cheers, Pieter On Thu, 16 Jul 2009, zed wrote: > Is there anyone on the list conversant with MySQL because, despite playing > around for some considerable time, I've run out of ideas. > > I have recently downloaded a program called VetTux. My intention was to > learn how to drive it so that, at some time, I could persuade my vet to > transfer his card index records to computer. The program uses MySQL, so I > installed the MySQL Client and Server on my computer, which runs LinuxMint > v7.0. When asked for a Password near the end of the installation, I chose > to leave the writable icon blank. I am the only person using this computer. > > Using the instructions provided on the VetTux website, the installation was > successful. However, trying to set up a database, I get the following > error: > > The VetTux database could not be created as it was unable to connect to > MySQL server using the details provided. This wizard has no option but to > terminate. > > I then went to a Terminal and the result of my various tries to resolve the > issue are shown in the terminal output below. > > zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql > ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'zed'@'localhost' (using > password: NO) > zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql -p > Enter password: > ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'zed'@'localhost' (using > password: YES) > zed@zed-desktop ~ $ sudo -s > zed-desktop ~ # mysql -p > Enter password: > Welcome to the MySQL monitor. Commands end with ; or \g. > Your MySQL connection id is 37 > Server version: 5.0.75-0ubuntu10.2 (Ubuntu) > > Type 'help;' or '\h' for help. Type '\c' to clear the buffer. > > mysql> \h > > For information about MySQL products and services, visit: > http://www.mysql.com/ > For developer information, including the MySQL Reference Manual, visit: > http://dev.mysql.com/ > To buy MySQL Network Support, training, or other products, visit: > https://shop.mysql.com/ > > List of all MySQL commands: > Note that all text commands must be first on line and end with ';' > ? (\?) Synonym for `help'. > clear (\c) Clear command. > connect (\r) Reconnect to the server. Optional arguments are db and host. > delimiter (\d) Set statement delimiter. NOTE: Takes the rest of the line as > new delimiter. > edit (\e) Edit command with $EDITOR. > ego (\G) Send command to mysql server, display result vertically. > exit (\q) Exit mysql. Same as quit. > go (\g) Send command to mysql server. > help (\h) Display this help. > nopager (\n) Disable pager, print to stdout. > notee (\t) Don't write into outfile. > pager (\P) Set PAGER [to_pager]. Print the query results via PAGER. > print (\p) Print current command. > prompt (\R) Change your mysql prompt. > quit (\q) Quit mysql. > rehash (\#) Rebuild completion hash. > source (\.) Execute an SQL script file. Takes a file name as an argument. > status (\s) Get status information from the server. > system (\!) Execute a system shell command. > tee (\T) Set outfile [to_outfile]. Append everything into given > outfile. > use (\u) Use another database. Takes database name as argument. > charset (\C) Switch to another charset. Might be needed for processing > binlog with multi-byte charsets. > warnings (\W) Show warnings after every statement. > nowarning (\w) Don't show warnings after every statement. > > For server side help, type 'help contents' > > mysql> \s > -------------- > mysql Ver 14.12 Distrib 5.0.75, for debian-linux-gnu (i486) using readline > 5.2 > > Connection id: 37 > Current database: > Current user: root@localhost > SSL: Not in use > Current pager: stdout > Using outfile: '' > UsIs there anyone on the list conversant with MySQL because, despite playing > around for some considerable time, I've run out of ideas. > > I have recently downloaded a program called VetTux. My intention was to > learn how to drive it so that, at some time, I could persuade my vet to > transfer his card index records to computer. The program uses MySQL, so I > installed the MySQL Client and Server on my computer, which runs LinuxMint > v7.0. When asked for a Password near the end of the installation, I chose > to leave the writable icon blank. I am the only person using this computer. > > Using the instructions provided on the VetTux website, the installation was > successful. However, trying to set up a database, I get the following > error: > > The VetTux database could not be created as it was unable to connect to > MySQL server using the details provided. This wizard has no option but to > terminate. > > I then went to a Terminal and the result of my various tries to resolve the > issue are shown in the terminal output below. > > zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql > ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'zed'@'localhost' (using > password: NO) > zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql -p > Enter password: > ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'zed'@'localhost' (using > password: YES) > zed@zed-desktop ~ $ sudo -s > zed-desktop ~ # mysql -p > Enter password: > Welcome to the MySQL monitor. Commands end with ; or \g. > Your MySQL connection id is 37 > Server version: 5.0.75-0ubuntu10.2 (Ubuntu) > > Type 'help;' or '\h' for help. Type '\c' to clear the buffer. > > mysql> \h > > For information about MySQL products and services, visit: > http://www.mysql.com/ > For developer information, including the MySQL Reference Manual, visit: > http://dev.mysql.com/ > To buy MySQL Network Support, training, or other products, visit: > https://shop.mysql.com/ > > List of all MySQL commands: > Note that all text commands must be first on line and end with ';' > ? (\?) Synonym for `help'. > clear (\c) Clear command. > connect (\r) Reconnect to the server. Optional arguments are db and host. > delimiter (\d) Set statement delimiter. NOTE: Takes the rest of the line as > new delimiter. > edit (\e) Edit command with $EDITOR. > ego (\G) Send command to mysql server, display result vertically. > exit (\q) Exit mysql. Same as quit. > go (\g) Send command to mysql server. > help (\h) Display this help. > nopager (\n) Disable pager, print to stdout. > notee (\t) Don't write into outfile. > pager (\P) Set PAGER [to_pager]. Print the query results via PAGER. > print (\p) Print current command. > prompt (\R) Change your mysql prompt. > quit (\q) Quit mysql. > rehash (\#) Rebuild completion hash. > source (\.) Execute an SQL script file. Takes a file name as an argument. > status (\s) Get status information from the server. > system (\!) Execute a system shell command. > tee (\T) Set outfile [to_outfile]. Append everything into given > outfile. > use (\u) Use another database. Takes database name as argument. > charset (\C) Switch to another charset. Might be needed for processing > binlog with multi-byte charsets. > warnings (\W) Show warnings after every statement. > nowarning (\w) Don't show warnings after every statement. > > For server side help, type 'help contents' > > mysql> \s > -------------- > mysql Ver 14.12 Distrib 5.0.75, for debian-linux-gnu (i486) using readline > 5.2 > > Connection id: 37 > Current database: > Current user: root@localhost > SSL: Not in use > Current pager: stdout > Using outfile: '' > Using delimiter: ; > Server version: 5.0.75-0ubuntu10.2 (Ubuntu) > Protocol version: 10 > Connection: Localhost via UNIX socket > Server characterset: latin1 > Db characterset: latin1 > Client characterset: latin1 > Conn. characterset: latin1 > UNIX socket: /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock > Uptime: 2 hours 51 min 56 sec > > Threads: 1 Questions: 90 Slow queries: 0 Opens: 23 Flush tables: 3 Open > tables: 0 Queries per second avg: 0.009 > -------------- > > mysql> \go dbVetTux > ERROR: > No query specified > > -> > -> \quit > Bye > zed-desktop ~ # > > Is there a member on the list able to tell me what monumental error I may > have made, please? > ing delimiter: ; > Server version: 5.0.75-0ubuntu10.2 (Ubuntu) > Protocol version: 10 > Connection: Localhost via UNIX socket > Server characterset: latin1 > Db characterset: latin1 > Client characterset: latin1 > Conn. characterset: latin1 > UNIX socket: /var/run/mysqld/mysqld.sock > Uptime: 2 hours 51 min 56 sec > > Threads: 1 Questions: 90 Slow queries: 0 Opens: 23 Flush tables: 3 Open > tables: 0 Queries per second avg: 0.009 > -------------- > > mysql> \go dbVetTux > ERROR: > No query specified > > -> > -> \quit > Bye > zed-desktop ~ # > > Is there a member on the list able to tell me what monumental error I may > have made, please? > > -- > zed > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From juanvr at live.com Thu Jul 16 10:48:40 2009 From: juanvr at live.com (Juan .) Date: Thu Jul 16 10:50:15 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] MySQL help wanted,,, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Worse than that... The user account zed doesn't yet have an account in > the database and vetTux is trying to use the zed account to set up the > mysql database. > > So two alternatives. Try setting up vetTux again only as root this > time or add a "zed" account. > > Regards, > Nevyn. > O hell, I can't read this morning... Nice spot. _________________________________________________________________ Feeling the financial pinch? Check on MSN NZ Money for a hand http://money.msn.co.nz From nevynh at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 10:53:38 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Thu Jul 16 10:53:59 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] MySQL help wanted,,, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 10:48 AM, Juan . wrote: > >> Worse than that... The user account zed doesn't yet have an account in >> the database and vetTux is trying to use the zed account to set up the >> mysql database. >> >> So two alternatives. Try setting up vetTux again only as root this >> time or add a "zed" account. >> >> Regards, >> Nevyn. > > O hell, I can't read this morning... > > Nice spot. Yeah... ended up with that puffed up chest look - "I've just found something that someone else hasn't seen" :D From michal at logix.cz Thu Jul 16 12:19:01 2009 From: michal at logix.cz (Michal Ludvig) Date: Thu Jul 16 12:16:19 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] MySQL help wanted,,, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5E71F5.5060007@logix.cz> Hi Zed, > zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql > ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'zed'@'localhost' (using > password: NO) > zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql -p > Enter password: > ERROR 1045 (28000): Access denied for user 'zed'@'localhost' (using > password: YES) Use 'zed' doesn't have an account yet, and there isn't a database dbVetTux created either. Do: zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql -uroot -p Enter password: ... mysql> CREATE DATABSE dbVetTux; mysql> GRANT ALL ON dbVetTux.* TO zed@localhost IDENTIFIED BY 'Passwd'; Now you should be able to connect both from command line and from the wizard: zed@zed-desktop ~ $ mysql -p dbVetTux Enter password: mysql> > mysql> \go dbVetTux For connecting to a database run: use dbVetTux instead of: \go dbVetTux HTH Michal From daniel at rimspace.net Thu Jul 16 13:12:32 2009 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Thu Jul 16 13:12:50 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <4A5E382A.5040703@gmail.com> (Seth Fischer's message of "Thu, 16 Jul 2009 08:12:26 +1200") References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> <4A5E382A.5040703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87ljmpxwfz.fsf@rimspace.net> Seth Fischer writes: > Nevyn wrote: >> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Seth Fischer wrote: [...] > It's a Virtuozzo container system managed by Openhost. Guess I'll contact > their help desk and see what they make of it. Oh, *NOW* you tell us. Yes, you can't write to /dev/console under Virtuozzo, because there is only one system console and you don't have access to it. I suggest you look to rewrite the log script to send the output to something useful like, say, logger(1), where you can actually use it. Regards, Daniel Normally, doing that wouldn't be sensible. In this special case, it is the right solution. -- ? Daniel Pittman ? daniel@rimspace.net ? +61 401 155 707 ? made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons From seth7f at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 18:09:02 2009 From: seth7f at gmail.com (Seth Fischer) Date: Thu Jul 16 18:03:54 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <87ljmpxwfz.fsf@rimspace.net> References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> <4A5E382A.5040703@gmail.com> <87ljmpxwfz.fsf@rimspace.net> Message-ID: <4A5EC3FE.8020305@gmail.com> Daniel Pittman wrote: > Seth Fischer writes: >> Nevyn wrote: >>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Seth Fischer wrote: > > [...] > >> It's a Virtuozzo container system managed by Openhost. Guess I'll contact >> their help desk and see what they make of it. > > Oh, *NOW* you tell us. Yes, you can't write to /dev/console under Virtuozzo, > because there is only one system console and you don't have access to it. > > I suggest you look to rewrite the log script to send the output to something > useful like, say, logger(1), where you can actually use it. > > Regards, > Daniel > > Normally, doing that wouldn't be sensible. In this special case, it is the > right solution. > Thanks. Sorry, I should have given more info. The help desk suggested I "remove the mailing function by adding mailto="" before the command that causes the error. I think I prefer your suggestion of using logger(1). I'll look into it. Thanks for everyones help. Seth From daniel at rimspace.net Thu Jul 16 18:31:11 2009 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Thu Jul 16 18:31:34 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <4A5EC3FE.8020305@gmail.com> (Seth Fischer's message of "Thu, 16 Jul 2009 18:09:02 +1200") References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> <4A5E382A.5040703@gmail.com> <87ljmpxwfz.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5EC3FE.8020305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87d481w34g.fsf@rimspace.net> Seth Fischer writes: > Daniel Pittman wrote: >> Seth Fischer writes: >>> Nevyn wrote: >>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Seth Fischer wrote: >> >> [...] >> >>> It's a Virtuozzo container system managed by Openhost. Guess I'll contact >>> their help desk and see what they make of it. >> >> Oh, *NOW* you tell us. Yes, you can't write to /dev/console under Virtuozzo, >> because there is only one system console and you don't have access to it. >> >> I suggest you look to rewrite the log script to send the output to something >> useful like, say, logger(1), where you can actually use it. >> >> Normally, doing that wouldn't be sensible. In this special case, it is the >> right solution. > > Thanks. Sorry, I should have given more info. The help desk suggested I > "remove the mailing function by adding mailto="" before the command that > causes the error. > > I think I prefer your suggestion of using logger(1). I'll look into it. *nod* Normally, I wouldn't suggest that, but Virtuozzo has no (current) way to capture console output, so you will lose the information that would normally be logged that way. One last consideration: logger writes to syslog by default; using that before syslog is available will still lose the information, so you probably want the 'log to the specified file' option. Regards, Daniel -- ? Daniel Pittman ? daniel@rimspace.net ? +61 401 155 707 ? made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons From seth7f at gmail.com Sun Jul 19 13:41:23 2009 From: seth7f at gmail.com (Seth Fischer) Date: Sun Jul 19 13:36:03 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Problems with /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh log_to_console() In-Reply-To: <87d481w34g.fsf@rimspace.net> References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> <4A5E382A.5040703@gmail.com> <87ljmpxwfz.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5EC3FE.8020305@gmail.com> <87d481w34g.fsf@rimspace.net> Message-ID: <4A6279C3.4050803@gmail.com> Daniel Pittman wrote: > Seth Fischer writes: >> Daniel Pittman wrote: >>> Seth Fischer writes: >>>> Nevyn wrote: >>>>> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Seth Fischer wrote: >>> [...] >>> >>>> It's a Virtuozzo container system managed by Openhost. Guess I'll contact >>>> their help desk and see what they make of it. >>> Oh, *NOW* you tell us. Yes, you can't write to /dev/console under Virtuozzo, >>> because there is only one system console and you don't have access to it. >>> >>> I suggest you look to rewrite the log script to send the output to something >>> useful like, say, logger(1), where you can actually use it. >>> >>> Normally, doing that wouldn't be sensible. In this special case, it is the >>> right solution. >> Thanks. Sorry, I should have given more info. The help desk suggested I >> "remove the mailing function by adding mailto="" before the command that >> causes the error. >> >> I think I prefer your suggestion of using logger(1). I'll look into it. > > *nod* Normally, I wouldn't suggest that, but Virtuozzo has no (current) way > to capture console output, so you will lose the information that would > normally be logged that way. > > One last consideration: logger writes to syslog by default; using that before > syslog is available will still lose the information, so you probably want the > 'log to the specified file' option. > > Regards, > Daniel Is someone able to explain the redirection in the following line to me? loop=y $func "$@" /dev/console 2>&1 || true /dev/console redirect stdout to /dev/console 2>&1 redirect stderr to stdout To redirect the output of this line to logger I'll change it to loop=y $func "$@" /usr/bin/logger 2>&1 || true Regards, Seth From swht at clear.net.nz Sun Jul 19 13:56:48 2009 From: swht at clear.net.nz (simon) Date: Sun Jul 19 13:57:37 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] DSL on Inspiron 3500 In-Reply-To: <4A6279C3.4050803@gmail.com> References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87my798203.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5B06D1.4060604@gmail.com> <87my786oix.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C1747.5000304@gmail.com> <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> <4A5E382A.5040703@gmail.com> <87ljmpxwfz.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5EC3FE.8020305@gmail.com> <87d481w34g.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A6279C3.4050803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A627D60.3040402@clear.net.nz> I've written before about Linux on my old Dell Inspiron 3500. I've got DSL working but it can't get it to connect. Asus wireless LAN AP Card WL-107. Any ideas? Best, Simon Taylor From nevynh at gmail.com Mon Jul 20 01:13:59 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Mon Jul 20 01:14:12 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] DSL on Inspiron 3500 In-Reply-To: <4A627D60.3040402@clear.net.nz> References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> <4A5E382A.5040703@gmail.com> <87ljmpxwfz.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5EC3FE.8020305@gmail.com> <87d481w34g.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A6279C3.4050803@gmail.com> <4A627D60.3040402@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 19, 2009 at 1:56 PM, simon wrote: > I've written before about Linux on my old Dell Inspiron 3500. I've got DSL > working but it can't get it to connect. Asus wireless LAN AP Card WL-107. > Any ideas? > > Best, > Simon Taylor It's the wireless card that's not working? Try typing in: lspci at the terminal and lets us know what it says... Or: sudo lshw -C network Regards, Nevyn. From robin.paulson at gmail.com Mon Jul 20 23:34:28 2009 From: robin.paulson at gmail.com (Robin Paulson) Date: Mon Jul 20 23:34:40 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] possibly OT: usb hand crank charger in nz Message-ID: <2f3aa2770907200434o263f7195nc22f1e354f9a9acf@mail.gmail.com> this is sort of on topic...bear with me. i'm looking for a hand crank, to charge my (linux-powered) cell phone when i'm out and about. it doesn't have great life, so being able to charge it when i'm away from a power socket would be great any ideas where i could get something suitable in nz? cheers From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 00:10:31 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 21 00:10:39 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] possibly OT: usb hand crank charger in nz In-Reply-To: <2f3aa2770907200434o263f7195nc22f1e354f9a9acf@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f3aa2770907200434o263f7195nc22f1e354f9a9acf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Robin Paulson wrote: > this is sort of on topic...bear with me. > > i'm looking for a hand crank, to charge my (linux-powered) cell phone > when i'm out and about. it doesn't have great life, so being able to > charge it when i'm away from a power socket would be great > > any ideas where i could get something suitable in nz? > > cheers Hi Rob, It seems fairly easy to make your own if you're that way inclined.... http://geektechnique.org/index.php?id=236 For the instructions and: http://www.trademe.co.nz/Sports/Camping-outdoors/Torches/Torches/auction-230461785.htm For the torch... Otherwise, do a search for "Dynamo Cell Phone Charger" on google and limit results to NZ. There's a few about but they all seem to come with radio and flash light (probably very cool for camping) and as a result cost around $65. Regards, Nevyn. From swht at clear.net.nz Tue Jul 21 18:27:32 2009 From: swht at clear.net.nz (simon) Date: Tue Jul 21 18:27:47 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] DSL on Inspiron 3500 In-Reply-To: References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <87bpnn6bjl.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5C34DA.1030004@gmail.com> <4A5E382A.5040703@gmail.com> <87ljmpxwfz.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5EC3FE.8020305@gmail.com> <87d481w34g.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A6279C3.4050803@gmail.com> <4A627D60.3040402@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <4A655FD4.3090500@clear.net.nz> lspci finds 02:00.0 Network controller: RaLink Wireless PCI Adapter RT2400 / RT2460 ... so it's there. But not configuring? Simon From nevynh at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 00:37:17 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Wed Jul 22 00:37:29 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] DSL on Inspiron 3500 In-Reply-To: <4A655FD4.3090500@clear.net.nz> References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <4A5E382A.5040703@gmail.com> <87ljmpxwfz.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5EC3FE.8020305@gmail.com> <87d481w34g.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A6279C3.4050803@gmail.com> <4A627D60.3040402@clear.net.nz> <4A655FD4.3090500@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 6:27 PM, simon wrote: > lspci finds 02:00.0 Network controller: RaLink Wireless PCI Adapter RT2400 / > RT2460 > > ... so it's there. But not configuring? > > Simon That's what it looks like. The next step, what distribution are you using? And what does lsmod show? It looks like there's a rt2400 package for Ubuntu so it's hopefully, with any luck, just a case of installing the right package. Regards, Nevyn. From nevynh at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 00:46:18 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Wed Jul 22 00:46:30 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] DSL on Inspiron 3500 In-Reply-To: References: <4A5ADC2E.70107@gmail.com> <4A5E382A.5040703@gmail.com> <87ljmpxwfz.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A5EC3FE.8020305@gmail.com> <87d481w34g.fsf@rimspace.net> <4A6279C3.4050803@gmail.com> <4A627D60.3040402@clear.net.nz> <4A655FD4.3090500@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 12:37 AM, Nevyn wrote: > On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 6:27 PM, simon wrote: >> lspci finds 02:00.0 Network controller: RaLink Wireless PCI Adapter RT2400 / >> RT2460 >> >> ... so it's there. But not configuring? >> >> Simon > > That's what it looks like. The next step, what distribution are you > using? And what does lsmod show? > > It looks like there's a rt2400 package for Ubuntu so it's hopefully, > with any luck, just a case of installing the right package. > > Regards, > Nevyn. A slightly more (10 seconds more) detailed look into the problem says that Network Manager can't control this card. It doesn't support WEP - only WPA. So if your access point is using WEP, you're out of luck. If you can set it to WPA, then you're in luck... funny that. Anyway, there's a more detailed explanation here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=419709 Which involves manually configuring it via iwconfig. Regards, Nevyn. From bob.harvey at work.net.nz Wed Jul 22 09:59:31 2009 From: bob.harvey at work.net.nz (Bob Harvey) Date: Wed Jul 22 09:59:49 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Virtualisation question Message-ID: <6vptfo$60toaf@smtp.mailfilter1.ihug.co.nz> Hi all, At the recent AKLUG meeting which covered a number of approaches to virtualisation, one point which was made a number of times was that, if your CPU was capable of providing h/w support for vm then it would be necessary to ensure that this was enabled, as in general the capability defaulted to being switched off. Assuming that I have this correctly, my question is: how to do this? My (HP-Compaq) laptop has Ubuntu 9.04 installed. Sysinfo shows the CPU is an Intel Mobile P4 of 3.06GHz, with 512KB of L2 cache. Its flags include "vme", which I assume is the one which should be turned on. But there is no sign in the BIOS of any way for this to be done. Where should I look? Thanks, Bob. PS - I plan to install VirtualBox as a trial to see what's involved in opening a WinXP window within Ubuntu. I have a total of 1GB ram, which I hope will be enough. From Geofrey.Rainey at tvnz.co.nz Wed Jul 22 10:52:29 2009 From: Geofrey.Rainey at tvnz.co.nz (Geofrey Rainey) Date: Wed Jul 22 10:52:48 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Virtualisation question In-Reply-To: <6vptfo$60toaf@smtp.mailfilter1.ihug.co.nz> References: <6vptfo$60toaf@smtp.mailfilter1.ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: Hi Bob, Does your BIOS have an option titled something like "VT" (Virtualization Technology) - it is my understanding that you need this type of Intel CPU. I'm sorry, I don't recall where one would find this setting in the BIOS. BTW, you share the same name as my Mayor, unless of course you are him? :) Regards, Geofrey. -----Original Message----- From: aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz [mailto:aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz] On Behalf Of Bob Harvey Sent: Wednesday, 22 July 2009 10:00 a.m. To: aucklug@linux.net.nz Subject: [AuckLUG] Virtualisation question Hi all, At the recent AKLUG meeting which covered a number of approaches to virtualisation, one point which was made a number of times was that, if your CPU was capable of providing h/w support for vm then it would be necessary to ensure that this was enabled, as in general the capability defaulted to being switched off. Assuming that I have this correctly, my question is: how to do this? My (HP-Compaq) laptop has Ubuntu 9.04 installed. Sysinfo shows the CPU is an Intel Mobile P4 of 3.06GHz, with 512KB of L2 cache. Its flags include "vme", which I assume is the one which should be turned on. But there is no sign in the BIOS of any way for this to be done. Where should I look? Thanks, Bob. PS - I plan to install VirtualBox as a trial to see what's involved in opening a WinXP window within Ubuntu. I have a total of 1GB ram, which I hope will be enough. _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug ========================================================== For more information on the Television New Zealand Group, visit us online at tvnz.co.nz ========================================================== CAUTION: This e-mail and any attachment(s) contain information that is intended to be read only by the named recipient(s). This information is not to be used or stored by any other person and/or organisation. From nevynh at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 11:31:38 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Wed Jul 22 11:31:48 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Virtualisation question In-Reply-To: References: <6vptfo$60toaf@smtp.mailfilter1.ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Geofrey Rainey wrote: > Hi Bob, > > Does your BIOS have an option titled something like "VT" (Virtualization > Technology) - it is my understanding that you need this type of Intel > CPU. I'm sorry, I don't recall where one would find this setting in the > BIOS. > > BTW, you share the same name as my Mayor, unless of course you are him? > :) > > Regards, > Geofrey. I didn't think it was a BIOS option. You either have it or you don't. If you have it, you have to specify to which ever virtualisation platform you're using of the fact. I believe Virtual box has a nice little gui to do this. Regards, Nevyn. From david.roberts at safecom.co.nz Wed Jul 22 11:35:10 2009 From: david.roberts at safecom.co.nz (David Roberts) Date: Wed Jul 22 11:35:41 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Virtualisation question In-Reply-To: References: <6vptfo$60toaf@smtp.mailfilter1.ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: <4C08B31BFF3B5D42BCAC255ADDD6EE5E01771DD5@tasbe116.advancedsolutions.co.nz> Depending on the bios, you may be able to disable/enable it. By default it should be enabled, it will be greyed/hashed out if you do not have a capable CPU though. All depends on the bios/mobo you have. (Disabling this often yields higher overclocks if benching is your thing..) -----Original Message----- From: aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz [mailto:aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz] On Behalf Of Nevyn Sent: Wednesday, 22 July 2009 11:32 a.m. To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Virtualisation question On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Geofrey Rainey wrote: > Hi Bob, > > Does your BIOS have an option titled something like "VT" (Virtualization > Technology) - it is my understanding that you need this type of Intel > CPU. I'm sorry, I don't recall where one would find this setting in the > BIOS. > > BTW, you share the same name as my Mayor, unless of course you are him? > :) > > Regards, > Geofrey. I didn't think it was a BIOS option. You either have it or you don't. If you have it, you have to specify to which ever virtualisation platform you're using of the fact. I believe Virtual box has a nice little gui to do this. Regards, Nevyn. _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug ##################################################################################### Important: This electronic message and attachments (if any) are confidential and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient do not copy, disclose or use the contents in any way. Please let us know by return e-mail immediately and then destroy this message. ##################################################################################### From daniel at rimspace.net Wed Jul 22 12:08:25 2009 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Wed Jul 22 12:08:45 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Virtualisation question In-Reply-To: <6vptfo$60toaf@smtp.mailfilter1.ihug.co.nz> (Bob Harvey's message of "Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:59:31 +1200") References: <6vptfo$60toaf@smtp.mailfilter1.ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: <87d47t37gm.fsf@rimspace.net> Bob Harvey writes: > At the recent AKLUG meeting which covered a number of approaches to > virtualisation, one point which was made a number of times was that, if your > CPU was capable of providing h/w support for vm then it would be necessary > to ensure that this was enabled, as in general the capability defaulted to > being switched off. > > Assuming that I have this correctly, my question is: how to do this? Go into the BIOS, and turn on the feature. > My (HP-Compaq) laptop has Ubuntu 9.04 installed. Sysinfo shows the CPU is > an Intel Mobile P4 of 3.06GHz, with 512KB of L2 cache. Its flags include > "vme", which I assume is the one which should be turned on. But there is no > sign in the BIOS of any way for this to be done. Where should I look? In anger at your vendor; a number of Thinkpad laptops had VMX capabilities, but IBM / Lenovo turned it off and had no option in the BIOS to enable it. Try updating to the most recent BIOS version and, if you still have no option, send your vendor a love-note to ask them why they disable the capabilities of the hardware.[1] Oh, and yes, it really sucks that vendors can do this. Regards, Daniel Footnotes: [1] ...and you don't /need/ to mention Linux at all, just that hardware acceleration for virtualization (or VMX/SVM) can't be enabled, which might get a response other than "we don't support..." -- ? Daniel Pittman ? daniel@rimspace.net ? +61 401 155 707 ? made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons From daniel at rimspace.net Wed Jul 22 12:09:31 2009 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Wed Jul 22 12:09:49 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Virtualisation question In-Reply-To: (Nevyn's message of "Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:31:38 +1200") References: <6vptfo$60toaf@smtp.mailfilter1.ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: <878wih37es.fsf@rimspace.net> Nevyn writes: > On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Geofrey > Rainey wrote: >> >> Does your BIOS have an option titled something like "VT" (Virtualization >> Technology) - it is my understanding that you need this type of Intel >> CPU. I'm sorry, I don't recall where one would find this setting in the >> BIOS. >> >> BTW, you share the same name as my Mayor, unless of course you are him? > > I didn't think it was a BIOS option. You either have it or you don't. You can check the hardware capability with: egrep --color=yes 'vmx|svm' /proc/cpuinfo However, it *does* require BIOS support to enable the feature, and not all BIOS implementations allow you access to it. Regards, Daniel -- ? Daniel Pittman ? daniel@rimspace.net ? +61 401 155 707 ? made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons From nevynh at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 12:23:18 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Wed Jul 22 12:23:26 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Next meeting.... (for August) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Nevyn wrote: > On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 10:24 PM, Nevyn wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> >> I wouldn't normally post this early... or perhaps it's a good time to >> start posting on this.... >> >> Anyway... For my first time ever, someone has approached me and asked >> if they can present the next meeting. While I'd normally ask for >> consensus on who's interested, and all the rest of it, I think, given >> that Rob approached me about it, we should give him the floor, no >> argument and everyone can decide for themselves whether they're >> interested or not and indicate your interest by attending.... >> >> So, the subject matter is the openstreetmap project which is in very >> basic terms libre google maps type of project. You can have a look at >> it here: >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/ >> >> So... all we're lacking, is a venue - we've always got RvB as a >> fallback if need be... >> >> Regards, >> Nevyn. > > Rob did ask me to open this up for discussion - it's not strictly > Linux. More about open data I think. Personally I don't see this as > too much of a problem as: > a) a few years ago we had a presentation on GIS which was along the > same sort of lines. Not strictly Linux and about open data to some > extent. > b) With Google Chrome OS being a web based OS (i.e. mainly a browser), > there's going to be more emphasis on web applications in the > foreseeable future. This is kind of cool in that there's already a > myriad of web developers out there getting comfortable with (I > hesitate to put it quite in these terms but) Web 2.0. (Does anyone > know the release date on Web 2.1?) > > Regards, > Nevyn. Hi Guys, There's been little discussion so far. Does anyone have anything else they want to talk about? I'm not sure how long Rob's presentation is so far but I'm sure we'd be able to squeeze something in if need be. Any big objection to having a meeting on the subject at hand? Any alternative venue ideas? I'm hoping to have all of the details finalised by Monday. Regards, Nevyn. From nevynh at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 12:29:46 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Wed Jul 22 12:29:54 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: More detailed email about Linux in Schools. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 10:45 PM, Nevyn wrote: > On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 12:49 AM, Nevyn wrote: > >> >> Regards, >> Nevyn. > > Wow! This thread is a whole lot quieter than I was anticipating. > Regardless, it seems someone's been reading. There was this post on > NZOSS about it: > http://lists.nzoss.org.nz/pipermail/openchat/2009-July/002401.html > > My apologies for it being a bit of a novel. > > Regards, > Nevyn. Is there any interest in this? I've had a few offlist sort of comments about it but nothing really on the list. How would people feel about a meeting on the 5th of August about it? That's 2 days after the AuckLUG meeting. I've been reading a fair bit and think we really need to position ourselves now. While on to it ICT managers at schools are researching their options if the MS negotiations don't go favorably, we need to be seen as a viable option. This means we need to sort out an umbrella organisation, website, mailing group (to enable the discussion to be opened up to all interested parties), come up with a name etc. Define scope... all that sort of jazz. Regards, Nevyn. From tobias.gerschner at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 12:49:18 2009 From: tobias.gerschner at gmail.com (Tobias Gerschner) Date: Wed Jul 22 12:49:32 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Virtualisation question Message-ID: > Hi all, > > At the recent AKLUG meeting which covered a number of approaches to virtualisation, one point which was made a number of times was that, if your CPU was capable of providing h/w support for vm then it would be necessary to ensure that this was enabled, as in general the capability defaulted to being switched off. > > Assuming that I have this correctly, my question is: how to do this? ?My (HP-Compaq) laptop has Ubuntu 9.04 installed. ?Sysinfo shows the CPU is an Intel Mobile P4 of 3.06GHz, with 512KB of L2 cache. ?Its flags include "vme", which I assume is the one which should be turned on. ?But there is no sign in the BIOS of any way for this to be done. ?Where should I look? Hi, I do have an HP Compaq Laptop myself ( Compaq 6710b). The option was under System Configuration -> Device Configuration and was called 'Virtualization Support'. I had to have this enabled to allocate multiple cores of the host system to 1 VM. While this option was disabled I could not do so. So one way of confirming that this works for you might be going into Settings -> System -> Processor (TAB) and then try to allocate more than 1 core to 1 VM. regards -- Tobias Gerschner Yoper Linux - www.yoper.com Knowing is not enough; we must apply. Willing is not enough; we must do. From bob.harvey at work.net.nz Wed Jul 22 13:58:09 2009 From: bob.harvey at work.net.nz (Bob Harvey) Date: Wed Jul 22 13:58:32 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] RE: Virtualisation question (Bob Harvey) Message-ID: <7dos1o$604l4d@smtp.mailfilter5.ihug.co.nz> Hi all, Thanks for the help. Reckon I'll just install and hopefully Nevyn's idea about the VirtualBox GUI sorts everything out. Cheers, Bob. PS - and I am not anyone's Mayor (as far as I know, and you'd think they'd tell you). From g.kloss at massey.ac.nz Wed Jul 22 14:18:56 2009 From: g.kloss at massey.ac.nz (Guy K. Kloss) Date: Wed Jul 22 14:19:18 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Next meeting.... (for August) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200907221418.56642.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> Hi, On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:23:18 Nevyn wrote: > There's been little discussion so far. Does anyone have anything else > they want to talk about? well, I've got an alternative suggestion for meetings in general. I'd really like to see some meetings "evolve" in a fashion that is to the present people interesting. I could imagine to see for some meetings to consist of a "slice" with a BoF (Birds of Feather) session. The idea being, that one topic is given up front, and then discussion, ideas, etc. could evolve around that. This could very well be accomplished "on top of" a meeting with a shorter presentation scheduled. Say having two 30 minute slots, one with a prepared presentation, one with a BoF session. Some topics I could imagine: * Linux in Schools * Bridging the white spots on the Broadband map in NZ (private Wifi networks to ease the pain) * Linux and Media Applications (editing your holiday movie, touching up photos, recording/editing Audio) * Software installs (What to do when something's not in the default distribution repositories) Any comments? Guy -- Guy K. Kloss Institute of Information and Mathematical Sciences Te Kura P?taiao o M?hiohio me P?ngarau Massey University, Albany (North Shore City, Auckland) 473 State Highway 17, Gate 1, Mailroom, Quad B Building voice: +64 9 414-0800 ext. 9585 fax: +64 9 441-8181 G.Kloss@massey.ac.nz http://www.massey.ac.nz/~gkloss From boxen_foxen at maddaz.com Wed Jul 22 16:24:23 2009 From: boxen_foxen at maddaz.com (Boxen Foxen) Date: Wed Jul 22 16:24:44 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Next meeting.... (for August) In-Reply-To: <200907221418.56642.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> References: <200907221418.56642.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <862861130907212124g564de622ncd71c4e75a0a9616@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 2:18 PM, Guy K. Kloss wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:23:18 Nevyn wrote: > > There's been little discussion so far. Does anyone have anything else > > they want to talk about? > > well, I've got an alternative suggestion for meetings in general. I'd > really > like to see some meetings "evolve" in a fashion that is to the present > people > interesting. I could imagine to see for some meetings to consist of a > "slice" > with a BoF (Birds of Feather) session. The idea being, that one topic is > given > up front, and then discussion, ideas, etc. could evolve around that. This > could very well be accomplished "on top of" a meeting with a shorter > presentation scheduled. Say having two 30 minute slots, one with a prepared > presentation, one with a BoF session. > > Some topics I could imagine: > > * Linux in Schools > * Bridging the white spots on the Broadband map in NZ > (private Wifi networks to ease the pain) > * Linux and Media Applications > (editing your holiday movie, touching up photos, recording/editing Audio) > * Software installs > (What to do when something's not in the default distribution > repositories) > > Any comments? > > Guy I would like to see/hear some info on making a std Linux Desktop or home Gateway/Router more secure, not necessarily going as far as Debian.Hardening with full Snort/Tripwire etc but a practical, reliable and verifiable less open setup. Also perhaps something to do with Home Media Systems for integrating a File/Icecast/Media Server into a Home Lan. From andrew.simpson at corokia.co.nz Wed Jul 22 18:15:38 2009 From: andrew.simpson at corokia.co.nz (Andrew Simpson) Date: Wed Jul 22 18:15:52 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Vodafone Vodem on Linux Message-ID: <20090722181538.dd742722.andrew.simpson@corokia.co.nz> On Tue, 30 Jun 2009 19:21:09 +1200 "Kealey, Martin, ihug-NZ" wrote: > > > I just rang Vodafone to get 1. prices and 2. modem > > brandname/model information, so I could google for drivers and/or > > linux support information. > > > > she couldn't tell me the brand or chipset information of the modem. > > They're Huawei devices. Probably E800 or thereabouts. > > There are both external USB devices and USB-faked-over-PCMCIA -- which looks a lot tidier. Same chipset either way, depending on which release revision they're up to; and so same drivers too. > > > Then she says the only supported > > operating systems are Windows vista, xp, 2000, etc. "Someone > > might have made > > drivers on the internet. > > Yes, Vodafone Spain. http://www.vodafone.es/ > > (Best to use Google unless you can read Spanish.) > > The trick to making it work is you *must* supply username and non-blank password, otherwise the Python script in the driver throws and exception, even though there's no username or password actually needed -- it authenticates off the SIM's mobile phone number (MSISDN in Telco speak). (Yes the card takes a SIM just like any other GSM phone.) > --------- This is an old thread, so I've copied it into a new thread for the archives. The Vodafone USB Vodem, 'just works' with NetworkManager on Ubuntu and probably most other recent distros too. On plugging in the first time, a wizard appears giving the choice of Vodafone, Vodafone (restricted), and Vodafone (unrestricted). I found more by trial and error that Vodafone (restricted) is the right choice. All this wizard actually does is change the values of the APN [1] field in the 'advanced' tab of NetworkManager. There are other fields in the 'advanced' tab, such as username, password, PIN and PUK - all of which can be blank. For the record, the APN that works for me, is 'www.vodafone.net.nz'. (The other APN that NetworkManager offers is 'live.vodafone.com', but that failed with logged error about wrong APN). Vodafone are very cagey about giving this information out on their website. But wait there's more: You don't have to read Spanish to find some fair dinkum Linux drivers... Vodafone have an open source lab [2]. The python script drivers are there too [3]. I didn't try them, but another Kiwi has [4]. These drivers do you signal strength, SMS and data quantities - all of which NetworkManager won't. Andrew [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_Point_Name [2] http://staging.betavine.net/bvportal/community/linux [3] http://www.betavine.net/bvportal/resources/datacards [4] http://www.geekzone.co.nz/chakkaradeep/4366 -- Andrew Simpson From Geofrey.Rainey at tvnz.co.nz Wed Jul 22 10:06:47 2009 From: Geofrey.Rainey at tvnz.co.nz (Geofrey Rainey) Date: Wed Jul 22 18:54:09 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Virtualisation question In-Reply-To: <6vptfo$60toaf@smtp.mailfilter1.ihug.co.nz> References: <6vptfo$60toaf@smtp.mailfilter1.ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: Hello Bob, You share the same name as my Mayor - unless of course you are him? :) Is there an option in your BIOS called VT - (virtualization technology)? -----Original Message----- From: aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz [mailto:aucklug-bounces@linux.net.nz] On Behalf Of Bob Harvey Sent: Wednesday, 22 July 2009 10:00 a.m. To: aucklug@linux.net.nz Subject: [AuckLUG] Virtualisation question Hi all, At the recent AKLUG meeting which covered a number of approaches to virtualisation, one point which was made a number of times was that, if your CPU was capable of providing h/w support for vm then it would be necessary to ensure that this was enabled, as in general the capability defaulted to being switched off. Assuming that I have this correctly, my question is: how to do this? My (HP-Compaq) laptop has Ubuntu 9.04 installed. Sysinfo shows the CPU is an Intel Mobile P4 of 3.06GHz, with 512KB of L2 cache. Its flags include "vme", which I assume is the one which should be turned on. But there is no sign in the BIOS of any way for this to be done. Where should I look? Thanks, Bob. PS - I plan to install VirtualBox as a trial to see what's involved in opening a WinXP window within Ubuntu. I have a total of 1GB ram, which I hope will be enough. _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug ========================================================== For more information on the Television New Zealand Group, visit us online at tvnz.co.nz ========================================================== CAUTION: This e-mail and any attachment(s) contain information that is intended to be read only by the named recipient(s). This information is not to be used or stored by any other person and/or organisation. From davemc at mcpond.co.nz Wed Jul 22 20:00:35 2009 From: davemc at mcpond.co.nz (David McNeill) Date: Wed Jul 22 20:00:08 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Meeting stuff In-Reply-To: <20090722042504.74E322437CE@hood.interspeed.co.nz> References: <20090722042504.74E322437CE@hood.interspeed.co.nz> Message-ID: <4A66C723.3080901@mcpond.co.nz> > Some topics I could imagine: > > * Linux in Schools I can give a lightening talk on this, and answer questions. > * Bridging the white spots on the Broadband map in NZ > (private Wifi networks to ease the pain) I'm keen to hear about this. My rural suburb is a dead zone. I have lots of spare network kit, and km's of fibre optic cable. > > Any comments? > Monday's are bad for me, I'm at Fire Brigade. -- David McNeill davemc@mcpond.co.nz McPond Software Open Source Support and Development www.mcpond.co.nz From seth7f at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 22:44:59 2009 From: seth7f at gmail.com (Seth Fischer) Date: Wed Jul 22 22:39:33 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: More detailed email about Linux in Schools. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A66EDAB.8070901@gmail.com> Nevyn wrote: > On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 10:45 PM, Nevyn wrote: >> On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 12:49 AM, Nevyn wrote: >> >>> Regards, >>> Nevyn. >> Wow! This thread is a whole lot quieter than I was anticipating. >> Regardless, it seems someone's been reading. There was this post on >> NZOSS about it: >> http://lists.nzoss.org.nz/pipermail/openchat/2009-July/002401.html >> >> My apologies for it being a bit of a novel. >> >> Regards, >> Nevyn. > > Is there any interest in this? I've had a few offlist sort of comments > about it but nothing really on the list. How would people feel about a > meeting on the 5th of August about it? That's 2 days after the AuckLUG > meeting. > > I've been reading a fair bit and think we really need to position > ourselves now. While on to it ICT managers at schools are researching > their options if the MS negotiations don't go favorably, we need to be > seen as a viable option. This means we need to sort out an umbrella > organisation, website, mailing group (to enable the discussion to be > opened up to all interested parties), come up with a name etc. Define > scope... all that sort of jazz. > > Regards, > Nevyn. > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > Hi Nevyn, I'm interested and will come along on 5th August. Seth From nevynh at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 22:44:37 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Wed Jul 22 22:44:51 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: More detailed email about Linux in Schools. In-Reply-To: <4A66EDAB.8070901@gmail.com> References: <4A66EDAB.8070901@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Seth Fischer wrote: > Hi Nevyn, > I'm interested and will come along on 5th August. > Seth *Nevyn does a victory dance which involves much flailing of arms* You've just made my day. I'm getting loads of traction from all over the country - but next to nothing on this list. Anyway... I think the first thing on the agenda should be: What should we call the organisation? (Then I can move forward in trying to organise a mailing list and the like). Regards, Nevyn. From robin.paulson at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 23:13:40 2009 From: robin.paulson at gmail.com (Robin Paulson) Date: Wed Jul 22 23:13:51 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: More detailed email about Linux in Schools. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f3aa2770907220413o1d6bab30r873e2fb84e55d891@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/22 Nevyn : > Is there any interest in this? I've had a few offlist sort of comments > about it but nothing really on the list. How would people feel about a > meeting on the 5th of August about it? That's 2 days after the AuckLUG > meeting. yep, i should be good for that. From robin.paulson at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 23:24:07 2009 From: robin.paulson at gmail.com (Robin Paulson) Date: Wed Jul 22 23:24:16 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Next meeting.... (for August) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f3aa2770907220424l376bc5bdyf4e3810ae9974ac9@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/22 Nevyn : > There's been little discussion so far. Does anyone have anything else > they want to talk about? I'm not sure how long Rob's presentation is > so far but I'm sure we'd be able to squeeze something in if need be. > Any big objection to having a meeting on the subject at hand? Any > alternative venue ideas? > > I'm hoping to have all of the details finalised by Monday. i'm aiming for about 30 minutes, plus maybe some participation stuff at the end. or could do longer if need be? i been thinking, is there any internet available to us at rvb (or wherever the next meeting will be)? there's a couple of things i'd like to demo which need a connection cheers From nevynh at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 11:18:27 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Thu Jul 23 11:18:36 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Next meeting.... (for August) In-Reply-To: <2f3aa2770907220424l376bc5bdyf4e3810ae9974ac9@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f3aa2770907220424l376bc5bdyf4e3810ae9974ac9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 11:24 PM, Robin Paulson wrote: > > i'm aiming for about 30 minutes, plus maybe some participation stuff > at the end. or could do longer if need be? > > i been thinking, is there any internet available to us at rvb (or > wherever the next meeting will be)? there's a couple of things i'd > like to demo which need a connection > > cheers Shouldn't be a problem. They do have internet onsite and they have a wireless connection. I'll chat to Jaco to find out what the deal is there. Hopefully it just means we'll have to buy a couple of beers or something.... Regards, Nevyn. From swht at clear.net.nz Thu Jul 23 12:19:44 2009 From: swht at clear.net.nz (simon) Date: Thu Jul 23 12:20:07 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report Message-ID: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> A small thing but annoying: noticing some glitches with Ubuntu 9.04 mounting a memory stick, I thought to update: A new Firefox - the popular browser - package was downloaded; it asked for restart of the browser; on restart - which it fails to do - it returns this message: error launching browser window:no XBL binding for browser Sorry to bring this up in this forum: if I could use my browser to get online and find a cure I would. Suggestions? Simon Taylor From nevynh at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 12:26:33 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Thu Jul 23 12:26:41 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report In-Reply-To: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 12:19 PM, simon wrote: > A small thing but annoying: > noticing some glitches with Ubuntu 9.04 mounting a memory stick, I thought > to update: > A new Firefox - the popular browser - package was downloaded; it asked for > restart of the browser; on restart - which it fails to do - it returns this > message: > > error launching browser window:no XBL binding for browser > > Sorry to bring this up in this forum: if I could use my browser to get > online and find a cure I would. > Suggestions? > > Simon Taylor Hi Simon, It normally has something to do with incompatibilities with extensions. To solve it, start Firefox in safe mode, and remove the extension causing the issues. If you don't have a shortcut to be able to do that, use a command prompt and type in: firefox --safe-mode Regards, Nevyn. From swht at clear.net.nz Thu Jul 23 12:38:03 2009 From: swht at clear.net.nz (simon) Date: Thu Jul 23 12:38:19 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report In-Reply-To: References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> Thanks Nevyn - terminal start in safe-mode returns the same error message and does not launch. From nevynh at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 12:49:30 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Thu Jul 23 12:49:42 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report In-Reply-To: <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 12:38 PM, simon wrote: > Thanks Nevyn - > > terminal start in safe-mode returns the same error message and does not > launch. Try epiphany-browser? Every fix that I can see seems to revolve around the idea of starting firefox in safe-mode or otherwise uninstalling filefox, removing ~/.mozilla and reinstalling firefox. It's a bit of a carpet bomb, but you could try it. From terminal: sudo apt-get remove mozilla-firefox rm ~/.mozilla sudo apt-get install mozilla-firefox (or something like that..) For epiphany browser, if you want to give it a go, type in: sudo apt-get install epiphany-browser It's the official gnome web browser. Regards, Nevyn. From swht at clear.net.nz Thu Jul 23 12:58:04 2009 From: swht at clear.net.nz (simon) Date: Thu Jul 23 12:58:26 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report In-Reply-To: References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <4A67B59C.9050503@clear.net.nz> Yup. Have installed Epiphany but am reliant for Firefox's Scribefire for blog editing. So want to get it going. Following instructions got: simon@simon-desktop:~$ rm ~/.mozilla rm: cannot remove `/home/simon/.mozilla': Is a directory From swht at clear.net.nz Thu Jul 23 13:01:30 2009 From: swht at clear.net.nz (simon) Date: Thu Jul 23 13:02:02 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report In-Reply-To: References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <4A67B66A.6000407@clear.net.nz> thanks so far ... but carpet bombing doesn't seem to do the trick. with sudo apt-get install mozilla-firefox this message: Package mozilla-firefox is not available, but is referred to by another package. This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or is only available from another source E: Package mozilla-firefox has no installation candidate is this a question of software sources? also tried simply 'firefox' but no luck with launching that either. From blakjak at blakjak.net Thu Jul 23 13:03:21 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Thu Jul 23 13:03:45 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report In-Reply-To: <4A67B59C.9050503@clear.net.nz> References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> <4A67B59C.9050503@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Jul 2009, simon wrote: > Yup. Have installed Epiphany but am reliant for Firefox's Scribefire for blog > editing. So want to get it going. > > Following instructions got: > simon@simon-desktop:~$ rm ~/.mozilla > rm: cannot remove `/home/simon/.mozilla': Is a directory > Simon .mozilla is a hidden directory that contains your personal preferences for Firefox. Feel free to use some initiative based on Nevyn's advice... Perhaps simply do this: mv .mozilla .mozilla-backup-update-problem Which will rename the directory. If Mozilla can't find your prefs it'll restore defaults, this is likely to help clear the problem up. Mark. PS: Any file or folder with '.' in front is hidden. You wont see it unless you use ls -a (all files, including hidden ones). Windows does the same thing with hiding system files/folders unless you deselect that option in the folder options dialogues. From blakjak at blakjak.net Thu Jul 23 13:07:25 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Thu Jul 23 13:07:34 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report In-Reply-To: <4A67B66A.6000407@clear.net.nz> References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> <4A67B66A.6000407@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: apt-get install firefox should install the firefox package. Read through the response it gives you use your head. A quick apt-cache search my end shows that the package for Firefox 3 is known as 'firefox-3.0' within Ubuntu. Here's a trick: apt-cache search firefox will search for all packages within apt that contain firefox in the name or description. You may like to put |less on the end to pipe the output to a list you can scroll up or down, or search in. The equivalent can be done within synaptic package manager, using it's search functions. You should actually be able to do 'apt-get reinstall firefox-3.0' I think. Additional note: All apt-get commands are usually run as root, if you're not root you'll need to preceed the command with 'sudo' Mark. On Thu, 23 Jul 2009, simon wrote: > thanks so far ... but carpet bombing doesn't seem to do the trick. > > with sudo apt-get install mozilla-firefox > > this message: > Package mozilla-firefox is not available, but is referred to by another > package. > This may mean that the package is missing, has been obsoleted, or > is only available from another source > E: Package mozilla-firefox has no installation candidate > > is this a question of software sources? > > also tried simply 'firefox' but no luck with launching that either. > > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From swht at clear.net.nz Thu Jul 23 13:17:22 2009 From: swht at clear.net.nz (simon) Date: Thu Jul 23 13:17:47 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report In-Reply-To: References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> <4A67B59C.9050503@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <4A67BA22.6060806@clear.net.nz> I'm sorry, Mark, but I can't demonstrate any initiative in this regard because I don't understand the code parameters. I have followed your suggestion. Seems to prefer being called firefox: no results from mozilla-firefox on reinstall (i.e. no candidates). For the former: Selecting previously deselected package firefox. (Reading database ... 178594 files and directories currently installed.) Unpacking firefox (from .../firefox_3.0.12+build1+nobinonly-0ubuntu0.9.04.1_all.deb) ... Setting up firefox (3.0.12+build1+nobinonly-0ubuntu0.9.04.1) ... and on relaunch: same error message: XBL binding From swht at clear.net.nz Thu Jul 23 13:52:23 2009 From: swht at clear.net.nz (simon) Date: Thu Jul 23 13:52:36 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report In-Reply-To: <4A67BA22.6060806@clear.net.nz> References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> <4A67B59C.9050503@clear.net.nz> <4A67BA22.6060806@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <4A67C257.5000705@clear.net.nz> Thanks Mark and Nevyn... It feels great when something works! synaptic packet manager - complete removal all firefox packages and then clean reinstall. so far so good. Have learnt a little. Thanks again. Simon From nevynh at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 14:48:30 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Thu Jul 23 14:48:40 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report In-Reply-To: <4A67C257.5000705@clear.net.nz> References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> <4A67B59C.9050503@clear.net.nz> <4A67BA22.6060806@clear.net.nz> <4A67C257.5000705@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 1:52 PM, simon wrote: > Thanks Mark and Nevyn... > > It feels great when something works! > > synaptic packet manager - complete removal all firefox packages and then > clean reinstall. > > so far so good. > > Have learnt a little. Thanks again. > > Simon Glad we could help. My apologies for not testing commands before sending. 1. I didn't have access to a machine that I could test this on and 2. I seldom do anyway ;p Regards, Nevyn. From kiirani at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 16:11:27 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Thu Jul 23 16:11:42 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report In-Reply-To: <4A67B59C.9050503@clear.net.nz> References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> <4A67B59C.9050503@clear.net.nz> Message-ID: <2494ad260907222111n4260c6cfu30ad24d5dd21005d@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/23 simon : > Yup. Have installed Epiphany but am reliant for Firefox's Scribefire for > blog editing. So want to get it going. > > Following instructions got: > simon@simon-desktop:~$ rm ~/.mozilla > rm: cannot remove `/home/simon/.mozilla': Is a directory For future, when this happens it's because you didn't apply the recursive option. Generally: 'rm filename' will delete a file 'rmdir dirname' will delete an EMPTY directory 'rm -r dirname' will delete a directory and everything in it (including other directories) :) From jubal at metahelp.co.nz Thu Jul 23 16:29:34 2009 From: jubal at metahelp.co.nz (Jubal John) Date: Thu Jul 23 16:30:07 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: [OT] Free to a good home In-Reply-To: <709f28c20907222124t730519c9t4e6a77d61ca042aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <8B4D6B10-9B89-48D9-8116-CF7CEC12794C@metahelp.co.nz> <709f28c20907222124t730519c9t4e6a77d61ca042aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <709f28c20907222129o675840f7yc7a22ee4eeb9d26b@mail.gmail.com> Hi guys, Sorry for the OT post but I know some of you guys might be intersted. I'm moving to Australia and have some old hardware for who ever wants to pick it up; Items; - T1600 toshiba 286 laptop with manual. Used to boot up to dos 4.0 prompt but only get a flashing led today when I tried it. Likely worth something to a collector. - cd/mp3 portable player with charger - 17" gateway CRT monitor - 33kbps ext (9pin rs232 serial) US robotics fax modem - PCMCIA xircon 33kbps modem but no dongle ~10 Internal cards pci to ISA. Incl scsi controller (aha-2940uw), more modems, 3com network cards,matrox pci graphics card, sound cards inc sound blaster vibra 16 sound card. Pick up is from Eden terrace, Auckland. I'd rather someone took the whole lot instead of just a part. So if u can pick up the whole lot in the next day or so n have some use for it, please get in touch offlist or on 021508880. Will accept donation of spare adsl modem, as I've inadvertently shipped it n now stuck on GPRS! Cheers Jubal From blakjak at blakjak.net Thu Jul 23 21:31:27 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Thu Jul 23 21:31:46 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report In-Reply-To: <2494ad260907222111n4260c6cfu30ad24d5dd21005d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> <4A67B59C.9050503@clear.net.nz> <2494ad260907222111n4260c6cfu30ad24d5dd21005d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Jul 2009, Kennedy Skelton wrote: > 2009/7/23 simon : >> Yup. Have installed Epiphany but am reliant for Firefox's Scribefire for >> blog editing. So want to get it going. >> >> Following instructions got: >> simon@simon-desktop:~$ rm ~/.mozilla >> rm: cannot remove `/home/simon/.mozilla': Is a directory > > For future, when this happens it's because you didn't apply the > recursive option. > > Generally: > > 'rm filename' will delete a file > 'rmdir dirname' will delete an EMPTY directory > 'rm -r dirname' will delete a directory and everything in it > (including other directories) :) > Yes. But note I suggested using mv (move) not rm (delete). This gave you a rollback position ... it also means you could salvage bits if necessary - like history, bookmarks or whathaveyou. :-) From thetoolman at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 22:30:08 2009 From: thetoolman at gmail.com (Tim Toolman) Date: Thu Jul 23 22:30:39 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report In-Reply-To: References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> <4A67B59C.9050503@clear.net.nz> <2494ad260907222111n4260c6cfu30ad24d5dd21005d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Amen - if you are testing to see if your profile is the issue you want something like: console@yourBox$ mv .mozilla .mozilla-original Starting Firefox will create a new ".mozilla" folder. If you want to revert, delete the new folder and move the old back, eg: console@yourBox$ rm -rf .mozilla console@yourBox$ mv .mozilla-original .mozilla I must point this out: treat "rm -rf ..." LOTS OF RESPECT! It will slay directories and there is no undo. Don't do it to your .mozilla-original, or any folder you care about. The root user can do nasty things like "rm -rf /"for a particularly swift, painful and permanent removal of *all* data! - Toolman 2009/7/23 Mark Foster > > > On Thu, 23 Jul 2009, Kennedy Skelton wrote: > > 2009/7/23 simon : >> >>> Yup. Have installed Epiphany but am reliant for Firefox's Scribefire for >>> blog editing. So want to get it going. >>> >>> Following instructions got: >>> simon@simon-desktop:~$ rm ~/.mozilla >>> rm: cannot remove `/home/simon/.mozilla': Is a directory >>> >> >> For future, when this happens it's because you didn't apply the >> recursive option. >> >> Generally: >> >> 'rm filename' will delete a file >> 'rmdir dirname' will delete an EMPTY directory >> 'rm -r dirname' will delete a directory and everything in it >> (including other directories) :) >> >> > Yes. But note I suggested using mv (move) not rm (delete). This gave you a > rollback position ... it also means you could salvage bits if necessary - > like history, bookmarks or whathaveyou. > > :-) > > > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > -- Tim Taylor +64 21 0541287 From simon at simongreen.name Thu Jul 23 22:46:30 2009 From: simon at simongreen.name (Simon Green) Date: Thu Jul 23 22:46:59 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report In-Reply-To: References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> <4A67B59C.9050503@clear.net.nz> <2494ad260907222111n4260c6cfu30ad24d5dd21005d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4d1940c20907230346s39ca1abekfb76cf3ca6578022@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/23 Tim Toolman > I must point this out: treat "rm -rf ..." LOTS OF RESPECT! It will slay > directories and there is no undo. Don't do it to your .mozilla-original, or > any folder you care about. The root user can do nasty things like "rm -rf > /"for a particularly swift, painful and permanent removal of *all* data! > If you want a safer way to do this, you can use a GUI file manager (nautilus for gnome). It has a move to garbage bin option (which effectively is the same as moving the file to your ~/.Trash directory). It will stay in your garbage bin, under you empty the bin. -- simon From kiirani at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 12:10:22 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Fri Jul 24 12:10:33 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Mozilla Firefox update error report In-Reply-To: References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> <4A67B59C.9050503@clear.net.nz> <2494ad260907222111n4260c6cfu30ad24d5dd21005d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2494ad260907231710p3cf9eafct234b9c5871303846@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/23 Mark Foster : > > > On Thu, 23 Jul 2009, Kennedy Skelton wrote: > >> 2009/7/23 simon : >>> >>> Yup. Have installed Epiphany but am reliant for Firefox's Scribefire for >>> blog editing. So want to get it going. >>> >>> Following instructions got: >>> simon@simon-desktop:~$ rm ~/.mozilla >>> rm: cannot remove `/home/simon/.mozilla': Is a directory >> >> For future, when this happens it's because you didn't apply the >> recursive option. >> >> Generally: >> >> 'rm filename' will delete a file >> 'rmdir dirname' will delete an EMPTY directory >> 'rm -r dirname' will delete a directory and everything in it >> (including other directories) :) >> > > Yes. But note I suggested using mv (move) not rm (delete). ?This gave you a > rollback position ... it also means you could salvage bits if necessary - > like history, bookmarks or whathaveyou. > > :-) I noticed this and approve, I probably should have mentioned that in my post. :) Generaly I just think if people are getting errors for commands and they don't understand why, the issue should be cleared up so they can use the command in future... Even if it isn't actually the best one to be using now. From juanvr at live.com Fri Jul 24 16:30:47 2009 From: juanvr at live.com (Juan) Date: Fri Jul 24 16:31:01 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: [OT] Free to a good home In-Reply-To: <709f28c20907222129o675840f7yc7a22ee4eeb9d26b@mail.gmail.com> References: <8B4D6B10-9B89-48D9-8116-CF7CEC12794C@metahelp.co.nz> <709f28c20907222124t730519c9t4e6a77d61ca042aa@mail.gmail.com> <709f28c20907222129o675840f7yc7a22ee4eeb9d26b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Jubal, I don't need the hardware, but I've got a spare DSL modem for ya if you want it. Hit up my e-mail. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jubal John" Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 4:29 PM To: Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: [OT] Free to a good home > Hi guys, > > Sorry for the OT post but I know some of you guys might be intersted. I'm > moving to Australia and have some old hardware for who ever wants to pick > it > up; > > Items; > - T1600 toshiba 286 laptop with manual. Used to boot up to dos 4.0 prompt > but only get a flashing led today when I tried it. Likely worth something > to > a collector. > - cd/mp3 portable player with charger > - 17" gateway CRT monitor > - 33kbps ext (9pin rs232 serial) US robotics fax modem > - PCMCIA xircon 33kbps modem but no dongle > ~10 Internal cards pci to ISA. Incl scsi controller (aha-2940uw), more > modems, 3com network cards,matrox pci graphics card, sound cards inc sound > blaster vibra 16 sound card. > > Pick up is from Eden terrace, Auckland. I'd rather someone took the whole > lot instead of just a part. So if u can pick up the whole lot in the next > day or so n have some use for it, please get in touch offlist or on > 021508880. Will accept donation of spare adsl modem, as I've inadvertently > shipped it n now stuck on GPRS! > > Cheers > Jubal > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From kiirani at gmail.com Sat Jul 25 17:20:46 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Sat Jul 25 17:20:56 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Synchronising USB Mass Storage devices? Message-ID: <2494ad260907242220w39059591j46cf49fed9749c71@mail.gmail.com> Hey guys, does anybody know of a relatively simple, preferably cli solution to keeping a vfat formatted usb flash drive synchronised to one or many local machines? I need something that will do a two-way sync, either prompting for each file, and/or favouring newer modification/creation times over old. I'll concede to something clicky if I know it will work. I believe I've tried a couple in the past (was kompare one? unsure..) and none worked. vfat "issues" if I recall.. I tried using rsync for this, I believe -zuva was the option string. It was iffy at best, I believe getting it to favour newer files was my major issue. I'm open to scripting around this problem if anybody has any suggestions. I also tried a little program called usbsync [ http://klingspor-thueringen.de/usbsync/ ]. This would work a charm if it actually worked, but while testing it out I'm getting errors about "termcap" and retrieving "hpa" (?!) in screen, and good old "Cannot access file or directory" errors in a clean xterm (Both dirs are local and 777, argh!) I intend to work on fixing the usbsync problems, but it isn't even unofficially packaged for arch so I don't expect to have a lot of luck unless I find somebody else who has it working successfully. With all of this happening I've been using a combination of 'diff -qr' and 'cp -r' to keep the data relatively organised. Some still goes missing so I'd really like a better solution. As something of an aside, I'm also interested in taking automated backups when the device gets attached, then possibly prompting for user-assisted sync. I'm pretty sure autofs (what I'm currently using for 'auto' mounting) won't do this... If anybody knows anything about setting it up I'd greatly appreciate. I presume it involves scripting around HAL or udev... - Cheers, Kennedy. From daniel at rimspace.net Sat Jul 25 18:33:35 2009 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Sat Jul 25 18:33:54 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Synchronising USB Mass Storage devices? In-Reply-To: <2494ad260907242220w39059591j46cf49fed9749c71@mail.gmail.com> (Kennedy Skelton's message of "Sat, 25 Jul 2009 17:20:46 +1200") References: <2494ad260907242220w39059591j46cf49fed9749c71@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87hbx1gtkw.fsf@rimspace.net> Kennedy Skelton writes: > Hey guys, does anybody know of a relatively simple, preferably cli solution > to keeping a vfat formatted usb flash drive synchronised to one or many > local machines? Unison is the best solution I have found. It does a two-way sync, and has both CLI and GUI modes. You can even automate it by telling it "always prefer ..." to a reasonable degree. [...] > As something of an aside, I'm also interested in taking automated backups > when the device gets attached, then possibly prompting for user-assisted > sync. I'm pretty sure autofs (what I'm currently using for 'auto' mounting) > won't do this... If anybody knows anything about setting it up I'd greatly > appreciate. I presume it involves scripting around HAL or udev... The first options is to have udev automatically run a script you write when the device is detected; see the udev manual pages and the SCRIPT option for details. Remember to make the matching rules as *specific* as possible... The second is to use the HAL DBus API to listen for new device notifications and act appropriately; see the org.freedesktop.Hal.Manager interface for the appropriate signal, curse because you have to do a lot of work to filter the notices manually, but whatever. At least it works. The third is that if you use a higher level desktop environment you may find that provides appropriate hooks; KDE3 used to allow arbitrary scripts on any event, which included "device connected", that you could use. I suspect the third path is little use to you, though, since you want a command line option and the console isn't known for being a rich desktop environment in that regard. ;) Regards, Daniel -- ? Daniel Pittman ? daniel@rimspace.net ? +61 401 155 707 ? made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons From robin.paulson at gmail.com Sat Jul 25 19:30:53 2009 From: robin.paulson at gmail.com (Robin Paulson) Date: Sat Jul 25 19:31:02 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Synchronising USB Mass Storage devices? In-Reply-To: <87hbx1gtkw.fsf@rimspace.net> References: <2494ad260907242220w39059591j46cf49fed9749c71@mail.gmail.com> <87hbx1gtkw.fsf@rimspace.net> Message-ID: <2f3aa2770907250030j5dec628bm3be3844771594fd5@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/25 Daniel Pittman : >> Hey guys, does anybody know of a relatively simple, preferably cli solution >> to keeping a vfat formatted usb flash drive synchronised to one or many >> local machines? > > Unison is the best solution I have found. ?It does a two-way sync, and has > both CLI and GUI modes. ?You can even automate it by telling it "always prefer > ..." to a reasonable degree. yeah, i can vouch for unison too - great tool. very flexible and reliable you could set your udev/whatever rule to fire off a unison sync when your usb device is attached From kiirani at gmail.com Sat Jul 25 19:34:10 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Sat Jul 25 19:34:21 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Synchronising USB Mass Storage devices? In-Reply-To: <87hbx1gtkw.fsf@rimspace.net> References: <2494ad260907242220w39059591j46cf49fed9749c71@mail.gmail.com> <87hbx1gtkw.fsf@rimspace.net> Message-ID: <2494ad260907250034n888305ap7bc688f611a967af@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/25 Daniel Pittman : > Kennedy Skelton writes: > >> Hey guys, does anybody know of a relatively simple, preferably cli solution >> to keeping a vfat formatted usb flash drive synchronised to one or many >> local machines? > > Unison is the best solution I have found. ?It does a two-way sync, and has > both CLI and GUI modes. ?You can even automate it by telling it "always prefer > ..." to a reasonable degree. This is brilliant, and it looks like I can get it running smoothly for monday. Thanks :) >> As something of an aside, I'm also interested in taking automated backups >> when the device gets attached, then possibly prompting for user-assisted >> sync. I'm pretty sure autofs (what I'm currently using for 'auto' mounting) >> won't do this... ?If anybody knows anything about setting it up I'd greatly >> appreciate. ?I presume it involves scripting around HAL or udev... > > The first options is to have udev automatically run a script you write when > the device is detected; see the udev manual pages and the SCRIPT option for > details. ?Remember to make the matching rules as *specific* as possible... > > The second is to use the HAL DBus API to listen for new device notifications > and act appropriately; see the org.freedesktop.Hal.Manager interface for the > appropriate signal, curse because you have to do a lot of work to filter the > notices manually, but whatever. ?At least it works. Do you have a preference for either method? I was going to look into udev first as I believe I've run into a HOWTO for it before and it looked relatively simple. With specific matching rules, surely there is a device ID of some sort I could use? I mean, /dev/disk/by-id/... indicates that udev can tell the difference between each device. I'll look into it :) Thanks again! From daniel at rimspace.net Sat Jul 25 19:55:38 2009 From: daniel at rimspace.net (Daniel Pittman) Date: Sat Jul 25 19:55:59 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Synchronising USB Mass Storage devices? In-Reply-To: <2494ad260907250034n888305ap7bc688f611a967af@mail.gmail.com> (Kennedy Skelton's message of "Sat, 25 Jul 2009 19:34:10 +1200") References: <2494ad260907242220w39059591j46cf49fed9749c71@mail.gmail.com> <87hbx1gtkw.fsf@rimspace.net> <2494ad260907250034n888305ap7bc688f611a967af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <874ot15h8l.fsf@rimspace.net> Kennedy Skelton writes: > 2009/7/25 Daniel Pittman : >> Kennedy Skelton writes: [...] >> The first options is to have udev automatically run a script you write when >> the device is detected; see the udev manual pages and the SCRIPT option for >> details. ?Remember to make the matching rules as *specific* as possible... >> >> The second is to use the HAL DBus API to listen for new device >> notifications and act appropriately; see the org.freedesktop.Hal.Manager >> interface for the appropriate signal, curse because you have to do a lot of >> work to filter the notices manually, but whatever. ?At least it works. > > Do you have a preference for either method? I was going to look into udev > first as I believe I've run into a HOWTO for it before and it looked > relatively simple. I have only used the udev method before, and I am not really /fond/ of HAL or the other FreeDesktop stuff that GNOME has dropped through Linux. It is, at least until they replace it with the next set of droppings[1], the current prefer mechanism for dealing with hardware, though. > With specific matching rules, surely there is a device ID of some sort I > could use? I mean, /dev/disk/by-id/... indicates that udev can tell the > difference between each device. Yeah, the udev documentation is reasonably comprehensive, and it provides tools to inspect the environment. Anyway, the udev mechanism is simple and reasonably portable, but restricts you to running as root and in a constrained and odd environment. The HAL mechanism requires running a daemon handling DBus messages, polling HAL, and so forth ... but it *also* allows you to be portable, in that users can set attributes with FDI files, etc. For just myself I would probably, today, just use udev, carefully. For something that I expected to have anyone else use I would seriously consider using the HAL method. Oh, and the final consideration: using HAL means a lot more programming, which doesn't worry me, but "script" vs "program" might be the decider for you. Regards, Daniel Footnotes: [1] I believe that DeviceKit is supposed to replace HAL some time soon, according to upstream, as well as to suck less. I believe in one... -- ? Daniel Pittman ? daniel@rimspace.net ? +61 401 155 707 ? made with 100 percent post-consumer electrons From kmw1 at free.net.nz Sat Jul 25 20:27:13 2009 From: kmw1 at free.net.nz (Karl.) Date: Sat Jul 25 20:27:22 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Synchronising USB Mass Storage devices? In-Reply-To: <2494ad260907250034n888305ap7bc688f611a967af@mail.gmail.com> References: <2494ad260907242220w39059591j46cf49fed9749c71@mail.gmail.com> <87hbx1gtkw.fsf@rimspace.net> <2494ad260907250034n888305ap7bc688f611a967af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090725082713.GK24017@boxen.mowson.org> On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 07:34:10PM +1200, Kennedy Skelton wrote: > 2009/7/25 Daniel Pittman : > > Kennedy Skelton writes: > > > >> Hey guys, does anybody know of a relatively simple, preferably cli solution > >> to keeping a vfat formatted usb flash drive synchronised to one or many > >> local machines? > > > > Unison is the best solution I have found. ?It does a two-way sync, and has > > both CLI and GUI modes. ?You can even automate it by telling it "always prefer > > ..." to a reasonable degree. > > This is brilliant, and it looks like I can get it running smoothly for > monday. Thanks :) There is a difficulty which I imagine you will encounter: vfat timestamps only have 2 second resolution. If the other filesystem has higher resolution then when unison copies to vfat the timestamp changes, and on the next run unison will think the file has changed. For my own uses with vfat, I generally just run unison twice - first run syncs the files, second run syncs the timestamps back to the higher-res filesystem (if they have changed). I'm not sure if any newer versions of unison have support for ignoring the 2s slop, like rsync does, but I don't think so (alas). Unison is a great tool otherwise - I use it daily. Karl. -- http://mowson.org/karl From kiirani at gmail.com Sat Jul 25 22:50:31 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Sat Jul 25 22:50:51 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Synchronising USB Mass Storage devices? In-Reply-To: <20090725082713.GK24017@boxen.mowson.org> References: <2494ad260907242220w39059591j46cf49fed9749c71@mail.gmail.com> <87hbx1gtkw.fsf@rimspace.net> <2494ad260907250034n888305ap7bc688f611a967af@mail.gmail.com> <20090725082713.GK24017@boxen.mowson.org> Message-ID: <2494ad260907250350s2be819s31ccbcb5077f57a3@mail.gmail.com> Quick follow up on what I've achieved tonight: First, I have unison running smoothly, set up a profile for the flash drive and it synced perfectly the first time. After I added a few files and directories it... stopped syncing perfectly, something about not having permission to set permissions. I'm figuring this for a fat32 vs ext3 issue and after some quick googling appended "perms = 0" to the end of my .prf file. Last sync went smooth so I think we're good. Second, I went with udev for the backups as I essentially just want something to run rdiff-backup when the drive is plugged in. I'm happy with manually calling unison to sync etc, and autofs will handle mounts for me, so running in a weird root environment is just fine and dandy. I *trawled* through udevadm info to get what I needed, eventually settled on what appears to be the highest parent entry for the device, with manufacturer, product, and serial information. I have two of these flash drives so only positively identifying the one I want is an advantage. My udev rule for it is currently: ACTION=="add",SUBSYSTEM=="block",SUBSYSTEMS=="usb",ATTRS{manufacturer}=="Kingston",ATTRS{product}=="DT 101 II",ATTRS{serial}=="0013729B678DF94176110299",RUN+="/usr/local/bin/usb-script" It detects the device fine and (I assume) is taking backups alright, but I have an issue: for some reason every time the script gets run, it gets run three times. I'm still not 100% sure why it does this and nothing I could add to the udev rule fixed it. Fortunately my original intention was to only have it back up once per day anyway, so I'm just dumping an exit call at the top of the script if it's already been called today. I'd like to fix the 3-call problem for next time, but at least it's not preventing me from doing what I do: #!/bin/bash if [[ `cat /var/log/usbbck-last` == `date +%F` ]] then exit fi echo `date +%F` > /var/log/usbbck-last rdiff-backup /media/work /backups/work& Suggestions on improvements are always welcome, but I think I'm going to stop tweaking this and go to bed tonight. Thanks all! :) From swht at clear.net.nz Mon Jul 27 16:47:21 2009 From: swht at clear.net.nz (simon) Date: Mon Jul 27 16:48:00 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] configuring wireless AP card WL-107 on Puppy (!) In-Reply-To: References: <4A67ACA0.7000509@clear.net.nz> <4A67B0EB.9000608@clear.net.nz> <4A67B59C.9050503@clear.net.nz> <2494ad260907222111n4260c6cfu30ad24d5dd21005d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A6D3159.8040609@clear.net.nz> Sorry to bring up another petty - albeit frustrating and so far to me insoluble - problem: Running Puppy 4.2.1 on Dell Inspiron 3500 ... and it looks great & generally runs well: but, I can't get a reliable connection to the internet. I connected once by disabling LAN's WEP ... on reboot - no connection. Jumped straight from there to WPA-PSK - on advice from Puppy owners... encryption key doesn't stick and no connection... Card is Asus WL-107. Puppy loads the right driver (rt2400) and it finds the card. ... My feeling is that if I could configure through console / terminal I might have a chance at getting settings to stick - and connecting, hopefully! Commands that work on other distros don't seem to work for Puppy. Naughty Puppy. So not sure where to start. Help appreciated. Best, Simon Taylor From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 12:30:37 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 28 12:30:46 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] August AuckLUG meeting Message-ID: Subject: Open Street Map Open street map is a google maps like project except that all the data is open. It includes, not just the front end but also an API for using that data. Speaker: Robin Paulson When: 7:00pm, Monday 3rd August Where: RvB Red vs Blue 155 Karangahape Rd Auckland http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=155+Karangahape+Rd,+Auckland+Central,+Auckland+1010&vps=2&jsv=164e&s%3Cbr%20/%3Ell=-41.244772,172.617188&sspn=139.023405,206.367187&ie=UTF8&oi=georefine&ct=clnk&cd=2&geocode=FXGYzf0duqJqCg&split=0 Given that Rob has said that the presentation is around 1/2 an hour long, we could probably have a bit of an open session afterwards. Just bear in mind that the venue closes at 9 so we should be wrapped up by then. From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 12:38:16 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 28 12:38:23 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux in schools meeting Message-ID: Hi guys, Announcing the first "Linux in Schools" (really bad working name) meeting to be held on Wednesday 26th of August at 7pm at: Dominion 234 Dominion Road Mt Eden, 1024 Auckland http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=234+dominion+rd,+Mt+Eden,+Auckland+1024&sll=-36.875759,174.751298&sspn=0.012136,0.019119&ie=UTF8&z=16&iwloc=A We should probably come up with an agenda: 1. Brief description of the organisation and projects. 2. Name is needed for such an organisation. 3. Discussion on individual projects. Regards, Nevyn. From blakjak at blakjak.net Tue Jul 28 13:46:35 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Tue Jul 28 13:46:44 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] August AuckLUG meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This, and the 'Linux in Schools' notice, are now on www.linux.net.nz. Cheers Mark. (Currently in Auckland, enroute Australia for a holiday..) On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Nevyn wrote: > Subject: Open Street Map > Open street map is a google maps like project except that all the > data is open. It includes, not just the front end but also an API for > using that data. > Speaker: Robin Paulson > When: > 7:00pm, Monday 3rd August > Where: > RvB Red vs Blue > 155 Karangahape Rd > Auckland > http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=155+Karangahape+Rd,+Auckland+Central,+Auckland+1010&vps=2&jsv=164e&s%3Cbr%20/%3Ell=-41.244772,172.617188&sspn=139.023405,206.367187&ie=UTF8&oi=georefine&ct=clnk&cd=2&geocode=FXGYzf0duqJqCg&split=0 > > Given that Rob has said that the presentation is around 1/2 an hour > long, we could probably have a bit of an open session afterwards. Just > bear in mind that the venue closes at 9 so we should be wrapped up by > then. > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From justin at skull.co.nz Tue Jul 28 14:55:08 2009 From: justin at skull.co.nz (Justin Cook) Date: Tue Jul 28 14:55:17 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux in schools meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93a52e0e0907271955m261da2cai3e4ce7aa9c11562d@mail.gmail.com> It's better than Linux In Education and Schools, which makes just the most awful acronym. 2009/7/28 Nevyn > Hi guys, > > Announcing the first "Linux in Schools" (really bad working name) > meeting to be held on Wednesday 26th of August at 7pm at: > > Dominion > 234 Dominion Road > Mt Eden, 1024 > Auckland > > http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=234+dominion+rd,+Mt+Eden,+Auckland+1024&sll=-36.875759,174.751298&sspn=0.012136,0.019119&ie=UTF8&z=16&iwloc=A > > We should probably come up with an agenda: > 1. Brief description of the organisation and projects. > 2. Name is needed for such an organisation. > 3. Discussion on individual projects. > > Regards, > Nevyn. > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 14:59:34 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 28 14:59:42 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux in schools meeting In-Reply-To: <93a52e0e0907271955m261da2cai3e4ce7aa9c11562d@mail.gmail.com> References: <93a52e0e0907271955m261da2cai3e4ce7aa9c11562d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Justin Cook wrote: > It's better than Linux In Education and Schools, which makes just the most > awful acronym. Cute... I'm hoping to drop the Linux bit altogether. i.e. focus more on the philosophy. So it becomes Freedom of Computing Platforms at Schools (FOCPAS?). I need help :/ From Daemonax at orcon.net.nz Tue Jul 28 18:22:58 2009 From: Daemonax at orcon.net.nz (Daemonax) Date: Tue Jul 28 18:23:09 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux in schools meeting In-Reply-To: References: <93a52e0e0907271955m261da2cai3e4ce7aa9c11562d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1248762178.6384.1.camel@studypad> A broader perspective would be better. Freedom of education materials. MIT's http://www.ocw.mit.edu website is just incredible for people who are motivated enough to learn on their own and don't care about getting a degree. On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 14:59 +1200, Nevyn wrote: > On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Justin Cook wrote: > > It's better than Linux In Education and Schools, which makes just the most > > awful acronym. > > Cute... I'm hoping to drop the Linux bit altogether. i.e. focus more > on the philosophy. So it becomes Freedom of Computing Platforms at > Schools (FOCPAS?). I need help :/ > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 18:47:08 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 28 18:47:18 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux in schools meeting In-Reply-To: <1248762178.6384.1.camel@studypad> References: <93a52e0e0907271955m261da2cai3e4ce7aa9c11562d@mail.gmail.com> <1248762178.6384.1.camel@studypad> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Daemonax wrote: > A broader perspective would be better. Freedom of education materials. > MIT's http://www.ocw.mit.edu website is just incredible for people who > are motivated enough to learn on their own and don't care about getting > a degree. I was thinking more the other way around. There are loads of sites for learning yourself. How about resources for teachers? A central repository for NZ related learning materials... From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 18:59:30 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 28 18:59:39 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Linux in schools meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Nevyn wrote: > Hi guys, > > Announcing the first "Linux in Schools" (really bad working name) > meeting to be held on Wednesday 26th of August at 7pm at: > > Dominion > 234 Dominion Road > Mt Eden, 1024 > Auckland > http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=234+dominion+rd,+Mt+Eden,+Auckland+1024&sll=-36.875759,174.751298&sspn=0.012136,0.019119&ie=UTF8&z=16&iwloc=A > > We should probably come up with an agenda: > 1. Brief description of the organisation and projects. > 2. Name is needed for such an organisation. > 3. Discussion on individual projects. > > Regards, > Nevyn. Given that this is politically a bit more open and more aligned with our aims, instead of the google maps link, Rob's just sent me this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?mlat=-36.87605&mlon=174.75112&zoom=16 From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 19:02:25 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 28 19:02:36 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: August AuckLUG meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 12:30 PM, Nevyn wrote: > Subject: Open Street Map > ? ?Open street map is a google maps like project except that all the > data is open. It includes, not just the front end but also an API for > using that data. > Speaker: Robin Paulson > When: > ? ?7:00pm, Monday 3rd August > Where: > ? ?RvB Red vs Blue > ? ?155 Karangahape Rd > ? ?Auckland > ? ?http://maps.google.co.nz/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=155+Karangahape+Rd,+Auckland+Central,+Auckland+1010&vps=2&jsv=164e&s%3Cbr%20/%3Ell=-41.244772,172.617188&sspn=139.023405,206.367187&ie=UTF8&oi=georefine&ct=clnk&cd=2&geocode=FXGYzf0duqJqCg&split=0 > > Given that Rob has said that the presentation is around 1/2 an hour > long, we could probably have a bit of an open session afterwards. Just > bear in mind that the venue closes at 9 so we should be wrapped up by > then. Oh the irony.... Here I am talking about Open Street Maps and post a Google maps link. Anyway.... I've gotten Rob to throw RvB into the system but need to wait for an update (so will post a new link tomorrow). Regards, Nevyn. From Daemonax at orcon.net.nz Tue Jul 28 19:23:02 2009 From: Daemonax at orcon.net.nz (Daemonax) Date: Tue Jul 28 19:23:13 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux in schools meeting In-Reply-To: References: <93a52e0e0907271955m261da2cai3e4ce7aa9c11562d@mail.gmail.com> <1248762178.6384.1.camel@studypad> Message-ID: <1248765782.6384.6.camel@studypad> On Tue, 2009-07-28 at 18:47 +1200, Nevyn wrote: > On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 6:22 PM, Daemonax wrote: > > A broader perspective would be better. Freedom of education materials. > > MIT's http://www.ocw.mit.edu website is just incredible for people who > > are motivated enough to learn on their own and don't care about getting > > a degree. > > I was thinking more the other way around. There are loads of sites for > learning yourself. How about resources for teachers? A central > repository for NZ related learning materials... > Surely that's the same thing? Textbooks, lecture slides, etc etc... Whether you're a teacher or self learner, they'd work for both. > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug From jtittsler at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 19:37:54 2009 From: jtittsler at gmail.com (Jim Tittsler) Date: Tue Jul 28 19:38:02 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux in schools meeting In-Reply-To: References: <93a52e0e0907271955m261da2cai3e4ce7aa9c11562d@mail.gmail.com> <1248762178.6384.1.camel@studypad> Message-ID: <63e484160907280037v17fa3e2bl1312900f2a412281@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 18:47, Nevyn wrote: > I was thinking more the other way around. There are loads of sites for > learning yourself. How about resources for teachers? A central > repository for NZ related learning materials... We're hoping to turn WikiEducator into that repository. Or at least one of them. The Ministry of Education has agreed to support a few small usability improvements to make it easier for NZ teachers to contribute, find existing items, customize them for NZ schools, and relate them to the NZ Curriculum. A few NZ teachers already have joined the community, but it is an initiative that is just getting started. (WikiEducator started at the Commonwealth of Learning, but has recently transferred to the OER Foundation which was recently established at Otago Polytechnic.) The idea is that the format is free form enough that it can capture a variety of inputs, but has just enough structure to facilitate reuse. And there is already an extension that allows exporting a "collection" of pages in PDF, ODT, or XML formats (and a demo that exports in standard LMS packages). A plugin for OpenOffice provides rudimentary WYSIalmostWYG offline authoring. http://wikieducator.org/Funding_proposals/Reusable_and_portable_content_for_New_Zealand_schools/Using_Wikis_for_Developing,_Sharing_and_Reusing_Educational_Content There are a series of GoogleGroup mailing lists for WikiEducator users, teachers, and techies if you are interested in exploring this option. http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator-teacher-collaboration-forum http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator-tech Jim Disclaimer: I am one of the authors of the paper and a WikiEducator volunteer coder/administrator, and therefore not unbiased. :-) Interchange with other repositories is also a hot topic, with a project just getting started to facilitate blending resources of WikiEducator and Connexions for example. From nevynh at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 19:44:49 2009 From: nevynh at gmail.com (Nevyn) Date: Tue Jul 28 19:45:02 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux in schools meeting In-Reply-To: <63e484160907280037v17fa3e2bl1312900f2a412281@mail.gmail.com> References: <93a52e0e0907271955m261da2cai3e4ce7aa9c11562d@mail.gmail.com> <1248762178.6384.1.camel@studypad> <63e484160907280037v17fa3e2bl1312900f2a412281@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 7:37 PM, Jim Tittsler wrote: > On Tue, Jul 28, 2009 at 18:47, Nevyn wrote: >> I was thinking more the other way around. There are loads of sites for >> learning yourself. How about resources for teachers? A central >> repository for NZ related learning materials... > > We're hoping to turn WikiEducator into that > repository. ?Or at least one of them. ?The Ministry of Education has > agreed to support a few small usability improvements to make it easier > for NZ teachers to contribute, find existing items, customize them for > NZ schools, and relate them to the NZ Curriculum. ?A few NZ teachers > already have joined the community, but it is an initiative that is > just getting started. ?(WikiEducator started at the Commonwealth of > Learning, but has recently transferred to the OER Foundation which was > recently established at Otago Polytechnic.) > > The idea is that the format is free form enough that it can capture a > variety of inputs, but has just enough structure to facilitate reuse. > And there is already an extension that allows exporting a "collection" > of pages in PDF, ODT, or XML formats (and a demo that exports in > standard LMS packages). ?A plugin for OpenOffice provides rudimentary > WYSIalmostWYG offline authoring. > > ?http://wikieducator.org/Funding_proposals/Reusable_and_portable_content_for_New_Zealand_schools/Using_Wikis_for_Developing,_Sharing_and_Reusing_Educational_Content > > There are a series of GoogleGroup mailing lists for WikiEducator > users, teachers, and techies if you are interested in exploring this > option. > ?http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator > ?http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator-teacher-collaboration-forum > ?http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator-tech > > Jim > Disclaimer: ?I am one of the authors of the paper and a WikiEducator > volunteer coder/administrator, and therefore not unbiased. :-) > Interchange with other repositories is also a hot topic, with a > project just getting started to facilitate blending resources of > WikiEducator and Connexions for example. Brilliant! I'm also hoping to be a central portal as it were to such resources. Why reinvent the wheel when groups out there could be working together to cover all bases. The relationship between the groups is going to be interesting given the amount of overlap. From csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz Tue Jul 28 20:04:44 2009 From: csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz (Liam Venter) Date: Tue Jul 28 20:04:53 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine Message-ID: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> The problem seemed to have started when?a new windows laptop I had connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. I rebooted my?kubuntu linux box?so that it would get a new IP address from the DHCP server (my ADSL router) However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes momentarily blank (while it goes?away to think about it) and then returns me to the login screen. Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a year I?am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the?hood in the past as it has run faultlessly. ? Kind regards Liam Venter mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 From thetoolman at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 20:22:12 2009 From: thetoolman at gmail.com (Tim Toolman) Date: Tue Jul 28 20:30:31 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sounds like X is crashing on login. You could look at end of the X server log if you know how to. 2009/7/28 Liam Venter > The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had > connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. > > > I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from > the DHCP server (my ADSL router) > > However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes > momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me > to the login screen. > > Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a > year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past > as it has run faultlessly. > > Kind regards > Liam Venter > > mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 > Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 > > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > -- Tim Taylor +64 21 0541287 From David.Hawke at ppfort.net Tue Jul 28 20:44:42 2009 From: David.Hawke at ppfort.net (David Hawke) Date: Tue Jul 28 20:44:48 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 Log in as you ;-) cd /etc/X11 sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg That should get you going again - probably reboot is the cleanest path to X from here If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the boot line and S after it which will put you in single user mode ie select boot kernel e ... for edit select second line e ... for edit go to the end of the line and add S b ... for boot David H //// // Tim Toolman wrote: > Sounds like X is crashing on login. You could look at end of the X server > log if you know how to. > > > > 2009/7/28 Liam Venter > > >> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >> >> >> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >> >> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >> to the login screen. >> >> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >> as it has run faultlessly. >> >> Kind regards >> Liam Venter >> >> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> AuckLUG mailing list >> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> >> > > > > From csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz Tue Jul 28 20:54:28 2009 From: csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz (Liam Venter) Date: Tue Jul 28 20:54:37 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> Message-ID: <633544.25909.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> ? Kind regards Liam Venter SalesFish,Consultative Sales Coaching. "Smarter things to do - not say" Thanks David really appreciate the help ? ?I have got to a command prompt and I have been able to login. ? when? I type cd /etc/x11 and hit enter I get -bash: cd: /etc/x11: No such file or directory ? ________________________________ From: David Hawke To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:44:42 PM Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 Log in as you ;-) cd /etc/X11 sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) sudo? dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg That should get you going again? - probably reboot is the cleanest path to X from here If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the boot line and S after it which will put you in single user mode ie select boot kernel e? ... for edit select second line e ... for edit go to the end of the line and add S b ... for boot David H //// // Tim Toolman wrote: > Sounds like X is crashing on login.? You could look at end of the X server > log if you know how to. > > > > 2009/7/28 Liam Venter > >? >> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >> >> >> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >> >> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >> to the login screen. >> >> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >> as it has run faultlessly. >> >> Kind regards >> Liam Venter >> >> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> AuckLUG mailing list >> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> >>? ? > > > >? _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug From robin.paulson at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 20:55:26 2009 From: robin.paulson at gmail.com (Robin Paulson) Date: Tue Jul 28 20:55:35 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> Message-ID: <2f3aa2770907280155j6bd842bck937f7927ddbde4d4@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/28 David Hawke : > Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt > (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 > > Log in as you ;-) i've had this a couple of times. one was from a full hard-drive, one was from a stuffed mobo once you're logged in using david's method, type df and press enter. that should tell you how much free space there is on your drives. you want to look at the 2nd from right column, the % numbers opposite '/' and '/home' (although you might not have the latter, depends on your setup). if either figure is in the 90%+ range, you might have problems From robin.paulson at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 20:56:02 2009 From: robin.paulson at gmail.com (Robin Paulson) Date: Tue Jul 28 20:56:12 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <633544.25909.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <633544.25909.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2f3aa2770907280156o749cfe06w802094d69242f840@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/28 Liam Venter : > > > Kind regards > Liam Venter > SalesFish,Consultative Sales Coaching. > > "Smarter things to do - not say" > > Thanks David really appreciate the help > > ?I have got to a command prompt and I have been able to login. > > when? I type cd /etc/x11 and hit enter I get -bash: cd: /etc/x11: No such file or directory upper-case X. case is important on linux From blakjak at blakjak.net Tue Jul 28 20:57:26 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Tue Jul 28 20:57:37 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <633544.25909.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <633544.25909.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Liam, Files and Folders within Linux systems are case sensitive. Ensure you include the Capital X in 'X11'. If that doesn't work you should be able to change directories to /etc and then use 'ls' (equivalent of 'dir') (or ls -l which is often more useful) to hunt for the right directory. You may actually find that you dont' need to back up the current xorg.conf to fix it (you can just run the reconfigure command below) but backing up the file means that if things go pearshaped, you can roll back. This of course is probably a good idea if the reconfigure command _doesnt_ fix things... Mark. On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Liam Venter wrote: > ? Kind regards Liam Venter SalesFish,Consultative Sales Coaching. "Smarter things to do - not say" Thanks David really appreciate the help ? ?I have got to a command prompt and I have been able to login. ? when? I type cd /etc/x11 and hit enter I get -bash: cd: /etc/x11: No such file or directory ? ________________________________ From: David Hawke To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:44:42 PM Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 Log in as you ;-) cd /etc/X11 sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) sudo? dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg That should get you going again? - probably reboot is the cleanest path to X from here If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the boot line and S after it which will put you in single user mode ie select boot kernel e? ... for edit select second line e ... for edit go to the end of the line and add S b ... for boot David H //// // Tim Toolman wrote: > Sounds like X is crashing on login.? You could look at end of the X server > log if you know how to. > > > > 2009/7/28 Liam Venter > >? >> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >> >> >> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >> >> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >> to the login screen. >> >> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >> as it has run faultlessly. >> >> Kind regards >> Liam Venter >> >> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> AuckLUG mailing list >> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> >>? ? > > > >? _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From blakjak at blakjak.net Tue Jul 28 20:57:58 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Tue Jul 28 20:58:08 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <2f3aa2770907280155j6bd842bck937f7927ddbde4d4@mail.gmail.com> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <2f3aa2770907280155j6bd842bck937f7927ddbde4d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Robin Paulson wrote: > 2009/7/28 David Hawke : >> Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt >> (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 >> >> Log in as you ;-) > > i've had this a couple of times. one was from a full hard-drive, one > was from a stuffed mobo > > once you're logged in using david's method, type > > df > > and press enter. that should tell you how much free space there is on > your drives. you want to look at the 2nd from right column, the % > numbers opposite '/' and '/home' (although you might not have the > latter, depends on your setup). if either figure is in the 90%+ range, > you might have problems > df -h is often more useful - changes the numbers to (h)uman readable. :-) From csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz Tue Jul 28 21:02:41 2009 From: csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz (Liam Venter) Date: Tue Jul 28 21:02:50 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <2f3aa2770907280155j6bd842bck937f7927ddbde4d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <225809.51058.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> nothing over 27% ?Kind regards Liam Venter ________________________________ From: Mark Foster To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:57:58 PM Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Robin Paulson wrote: > 2009/7/28 David Hawke : >> Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt >> (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 >> >> Log in as you ;-) > > i've had this a couple of times. one was from a full hard-drive, one > was from a stuffed mobo > > once you're logged in using david's method, type > > df > > and press enter. that should tell you how much free space there is on > your drives. you want to look at the 2nd from right column, the % > numbers opposite '/' and '/home' (although you might not have the > latter, depends on your setup). if either figure is in the 90%+ range, > you might have problems > df -h is often more useful - changes the numbers to (h)uman readable. :-) _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug From csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz Tue Jul 28 21:06:42 2009 From: csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz (Liam Venter) Date: Tue Jul 28 21:06:50 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> Message-ID: <803626.98367.qm@web62005.mail.re1.yahoo.com> OK the capital X works. whats the format for ...conf.todatsdate (or .old or .bak) Sorry I am so green on this and thanks for the brilliant help ________________________________ From: David Hawke To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:44:42 PM Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 Log in as you ;-) cd /etc/X11 sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) sudo? dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg That should get you going again? - probably reboot is the cleanest path to X from here If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the boot line and S after it which will put you in single user mode ie select boot kernel e? ... for edit select second line e ... for edit go to the end of the line and add S b ... for boot David H //// // Tim Toolman wrote: > Sounds like X is crashing on login.? You could look at end of the X server > log if you know how to. > > > > 2009/7/28 Liam Venter > >? >> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >> >> >> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >> >> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >> to the login screen. >> >> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >> as it has run faultlessly. >> >> Kind regards >> Liam Venter >> >> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> AuckLUG mailing list >> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> >>? ? > > > >? _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug From csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz Tue Jul 28 21:13:11 2009 From: csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz (Liam Venter) Date: Tue Jul 28 21:13:26 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> Message-ID: <992031.99336.qm@web62007.mail.re1.yahoo.com> cd /etc/X11 sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) Should I get any on screen confirmation at this point to indicate the back up has worked? // Tim Toolman wrote: > Sounds like X is crashing on login.? You could look at end of the X server > log if you know how to. > > > > 2009/7/28 Liam Venter > >? >> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >> >> >> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >> >> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >> to the login screen. >> >> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >> as it has run faultlessly. >> >> Kind regards >> Liam Venter >> >> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> AuckLUG mailing list >> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> >>? ? > > > >? _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug From blakjak at blakjak.net Tue Jul 28 21:14:03 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Tue Jul 28 21:14:13 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <803626.98367.qm@web62005.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <803626.98367.qm@web62005.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Its just renaming a config file to something that backs it up but doesnt remove it, adn then recreating that config file usign a package that'll autodetect the supported parameters (supposedly). :-) So use something like xorg.conf.2009July28 When you run the script you've been pointed at, it'll recreate a new xorg.conf which is the configuration file XWindows uses to get its graphics settings, etc. Mark. On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Liam Venter wrote: > OK the capital X works. whats the format for ...conf.todatsdate (or .old or .bak) Sorry I am so green on this and thanks for the brilliant help ________________________________ From: David Hawke To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:44:42 PM Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 Log in as you ;-) cd /etc/X11 sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) sudo? dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg That should get you going again? - probably reboot is the cleanest path to X from here If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the boot line and S after it which will put you in single user mode ie select boot kernel e? ... for edit select second line e ... for edit go to the end of the line and add S b ... for boot David H //// // Tim Toolman wrote: > Sounds like X is crashing on login.? You could look at end of the X server > log if you know how to. > > > > 2009/7/28 Liam Venter > >? >> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >> >> >> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >> >> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >> to the login screen. >> >> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >> as it has run faultlessly. >> >> Kind regards >> Liam Venter >> >> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> AuckLUG mailing list >> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> >>? ? > > > >? _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From blakjak at blakjak.net Tue Jul 28 21:14:40 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Tue Jul 28 21:14:54 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <992031.99336.qm@web62007.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <992031.99336.qm@web62007.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No. its silent. Feedback in case of error should be expected; silence is good. On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Liam Venter wrote: > cd /etc/X11 sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) Should I get any on screen confirmation at this point to indicate the back up has worked? // Tim Toolman wrote: > Sounds like X is crashing on login.? You could look at end of the X server > log if you know how to. > > > > 2009/7/28 Liam Venter > >? >> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >> >> >> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >> >> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >> to the login screen. >> >> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >> as it has run faultlessly. >> >> Kind regards >> Liam Venter >> >> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> AuckLUG mailing list >> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> >>? ? > > > >? _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz Tue Jul 28 21:21:42 2009 From: csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz (Liam Venter) Date: Tue Jul 28 21:21:55 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <803626.98367.qm@web62005.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <933867.20386.qm@web62008.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Ok that's clear and when i do a dir I can see the backed up config ?Kind regards Liam Venter ________________________________ From: Mark Foster To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 9:14:03 PM Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine Its just renaming a config file to something that backs it up but doesnt remove it, adn then recreating that config file usign a package that'll autodetect the supported parameters (supposedly). :-) So use something like xorg.conf.2009July28 When you run the script you've been pointed at, it'll recreate a new xorg.conf which is the configuration file XWindows uses to get its graphics settings, etc. Mark. On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Liam Venter wrote: > OK the capital X works. whats the format for ...conf.todatsdate (or .old or .bak) Sorry I am so green on this and thanks for the brilliant help ________________________________ From: David Hawke To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:44:42 PM Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 Log in as you ;-) cd /etc/X11 sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) sudo? dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg That should get you going again? - probably reboot is the cleanest path to X from here If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the boot line and S after it which will put you in single user mode ie select boot kernel e? ... for edit select second line e ... for edit go to the end of the line and add S b ... for boot David H //// // Tim Toolman wrote: > Sounds like X is crashing on login.? You could look at end of the X server > log if you know how to. > > > > 2009/7/28 Liam Venter > >? >> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >> >> >> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >> >> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >> to the login screen. >> >> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >> as it has run faultlessly. >> >> Kind regards >> Liam Venter >> >> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> AuckLUG mailing list >> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> >>? ? > > > >? _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From kiirani at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 21:23:45 2009 From: kiirani at gmail.com (Kennedy Skelton) Date: Tue Jul 28 21:24:06 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <933867.20386.qm@web62008.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <803626.98367.qm@web62005.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <933867.20386.qm@web62008.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2494ad260907280223m6cfb079dvebe27a39351b158@mail.gmail.com> If you want to get confirmations of copies, moves, removes, etc in future, you should know that it's possible. Feel free to ask after your login is fixed & I'll give you a quick walk through :) 2009/7/28 Liam Venter : > Ok that's clear and when i do a dir I can see the backed up config > ?Kind regards > Liam Venter > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Mark Foster > To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list > Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 9:14:03 PM > Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine > > > Its just renaming a config file to something that backs it up but doesnt > remove it, adn then recreating that config file usign a package that'll > autodetect the supported parameters (supposedly). :-) > > So use something like xorg.conf.2009July28 > > When you run the script you've been pointed at, it'll recreate a new > xorg.conf which is the configuration file XWindows uses to get its > graphics settings, etc. > > Mark. > > > > On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Liam Venter wrote: > >> OK the capital X works. > > whats the format for ...conf.todatsdate (or .old or .bak) > > Sorry I am so green on this and thanks for the brilliant help > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Hawke > To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list > Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:44:42 PM > Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine > > Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt > (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 > > Log in as you ;-) > > cd /etc/X11 > sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) > > sudo? dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg > > That should get you going again? - probably reboot is the cleanest path > to X from here > > If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the boot > line and S after it which will put you in single user mode > ie > select boot kernel > e? ... for edit > select second line > e ... for edit > go to the end of the line and add S > b ... for boot > > > > > David H > > //// > > > // Tim Toolman wrote: >> Sounds like X is crashing on login.? You could look at end of the X server >> log if you know how to. >> >> >> >> 2009/7/28 Liam Venter >> >> >>> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >>> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >>> >>> >>> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >>> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >>> >>> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >>> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >>> to the login screen. >>> >>> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >>> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >>> as it has run faultlessly. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> Liam Venter >>> >>> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >>> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> AuckLUG mailing list >>> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >>> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> _______________________________________________ >> AuckLUG mailing list >> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From blakjak at blakjak.net Tue Jul 28 21:30:16 2009 From: blakjak at blakjak.net (Mark Foster) Date: Tue Jul 28 21:30:25 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <933867.20386.qm@web62008.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <803626.98367.qm@web62005.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <933867.20386.qm@web62008.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ok. run the dpkg command you were given and then reboot the system. XWindows should hopefully crank up. On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Liam Venter wrote: > Ok that's clear and when i do a dir I can see the backed up config ?Kind regards Liam Venter From David.Hawke at ppfort.net Tue Jul 28 21:32:38 2009 From: David.Hawke at ppfort.net (David Hawke) Date: Tue Jul 28 21:32:48 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <633544.25909.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <633544.25909.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A6EC5B6.6030707@ppfort.net> Liam Venter wrote: > > Kind regards > Liam Venter > SalesFish,Consultative Sales Coaching. > > "Smarter things to do - not say" > > Thanks David really appreciate the help > > I have got to a command prompt and I have been able to login. > > when I type cd /etc/x11 and hit enter I get -bash: cd: /etc/x11: No such file or directory > Oops - sorry - as others have picked up ... pebkac ... /etc/X11 Too focused on another problem :-( David H > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Hawke > To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list > Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:44:42 PM > Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine > > Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt > (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 > > Log in as you ;-) > > cd /etc/X11 > sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) > > sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg > > That should get you going again - probably reboot is the cleanest path > to X from here > > If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the boot > line and S after it which will put you in single user mode > ie > select boot kernel > e ... for edit > select second line > e ... for edit > go to the end of the line and add S > b ... for boot > > > > > David H > > //// > > > // Tim Toolman wrote: > >> Sounds like X is crashing on login. You could look at end of the X server >> log if you know how to. >> >> >> >> 2009/7/28 Liam Venter >> >> >> >>> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >>> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >>> >>> >>> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >>> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >>> >>> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >>> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >>> to the login screen. >>> >>> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >>> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >>> as it has run faultlessly. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> Liam Venter >>> >>> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >>> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> AuckLUG mailing list >>> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >>> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > > > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz Tue Jul 28 21:42:53 2009 From: csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz (Liam Venter) Date: Tue Jul 28 21:43:09 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <803626.98367.qm@web62005.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <933867.20386.qm@web62008.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <228899.66923.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Just?completed that?and I still have the original problem. ?Kind regards Liam Venter mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 ________________________________ From: Mark Foster To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 9:30:16 PM Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine Ok. run the dpkg command you were given and then reboot the system. XWindows should hopefully crank up. On Tue, 28 Jul 2009, Liam Venter wrote: > Ok that's clear and when i do a dir I can see the backed up config ?Kind regards Liam Venter From csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz Tue Jul 28 21:44:03 2009 From: csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz (Liam Venter) Date: Tue Jul 28 21:44:13 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine Message-ID: <36416.67372.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> OK I think I have done the stuff below correctly now but I still have the same problem as originally (as further below) Further thoughts anyone? Once again thanks for the help so far. ________________________________ From: David Hawke To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:44:42 PM Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 Log in as you ;-) cd /etc/X11 sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) sudo? dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg That should get you going again? - probably reboot is the cleanest path to X from here If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the boot line and S after it which will put you in single user mode ie select boot kernel e? ... for edit select second line e ... for edit go to the end of the line and add S b ... for boot David H //// // Tim Toolman wrote: > Sounds like X is crashing on login.? You could look at end of the X server > log if you know how to. > > > > 2009/7/28 Liam Venter > >? >> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >> >> >> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >> >> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >> to the login screen. >> >> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >> as it has run faultlessly. >> >> Kind regards >> Liam Venter >> >> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> AuckLUG mailing list >> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> >>? ? > > > >? _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug From csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz Tue Jul 28 21:51:35 2009 From: csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz (Liam Venter) Date: Tue Jul 28 21:51:44 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> Message-ID: <2662.70672.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> It's probably worth mentioning that?I don't get any?error message when I try to log in to the windows style interface with the right password it just returns me to the login screen after a moments blankness. If I deliberately type the wrong password I do get a login failed message. So I am typing the right password but you?guys are obviously right there is a problem with the window interface starting. ________________________________ From: David Hawke To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:44:42 PM Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 Log in as you ;-) cd /etc/X11 sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) sudo? dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg That should get you going again? - probably reboot is the cleanest path to X from here If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the boot line and S after it which will put you in single user mode ie select boot kernel e? ... for edit select second line e ... for edit go to the end of the line and add S b ... for boot David H //// // Tim Toolman wrote: > Sounds like X is crashing on login.? You could look at end of the X server > log if you know how to. > > > > 2009/7/28 Liam Venter > >? >> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >> >> >> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >> >> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >> to the login screen. >> >> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >> as it has run faultlessly. >> >> Kind regards >> Liam Venter >> >> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> AuckLUG mailing list >> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> >>? ? > > > >? _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug From csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz Tue Jul 28 21:56:08 2009 From: csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz (Liam Venter) Date: Tue Jul 28 21:56:17 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> Message-ID: <792429.16623.qm@web62007.mail.re1.yahoo.com> The only thing that I have done to the machine since it last logged on correctly is that I let the kids watch a DVD using VLC media player. ? I am wondering if this in some way altered the video driver configurations ________________________________ From: David Hawke To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:44:42 PM Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 Log in as you ;-) cd /etc/X11 sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) sudo? dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg That should get you going again? - probably reboot is the cleanest path to X from here If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the boot line and S after it which will put you in single user mode ie select boot kernel e? ... for edit select second line e ... for edit go to the end of the line and add S b ... for boot David H //// // Tim Toolman wrote: > Sounds like X is crashing on login.? You could look at end of the X server > log if you know how to. > > > > 2009/7/28 Liam Venter > >? >> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >> >> >> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >> >> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >> to the login screen. >> >> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >> as it has run faultlessly. >> >> Kind regards >> Liam Venter >> >> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> AuckLUG mailing list >> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> >>? ? > > > >? _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug From David.Hawke at ppfort.net Tue Jul 28 22:01:34 2009 From: David.Hawke at ppfort.net (David Hawke) Date: Tue Jul 28 22:01:38 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <2662.70672.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <2662.70672.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A6ECC7E.7090603@ppfort.net> Liam Venter wrote: > It's probably worth mentioning that I don't get any error message when I try to log in to the windows style interface with the right password it just returns me to the login screen after a moments blankness. > > If I deliberately type the wrong password I do get a login failed message. > > So I am typing the right password but you guys are obviously right there is a problem with the window interface starting. > Hmmm ... plan C Looks as though KDE doesn't like something - from the Menu in the login screen pick failsafe log in back up you .kde and .kde4 directories if present then move them somplace else ... eg tar xvf kde_backup.tar .kdr .kde4 If that exits OK then mv .kde .kde.bak mv .kde4 .kde4.bak exit Then pick KDE from the menu and log in again Otherwise pick Gnome and login :-) David H > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Hawke > To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list > Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:44:42 PM > Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine > > Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt > (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 > > Log in as you ;-) > > cd /etc/X11 > sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) > > sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg > > That should get you going again - probably reboot is the cleanest path > to X from here > > If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the boot > line and S after it which will put you in single user mode > ie > select boot kernel > e ... for edit > select second line > e ... for edit > go to the end of the line and add S > b ... for boot > > > > > David H > > //// > > > // Tim Toolman wrote: > >> Sounds like X is crashing on login. You could look at end of the X server >> log if you know how to. >> >> >> >> 2009/7/28 Liam Venter >> >> >> >>> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >>> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >>> >>> >>> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >>> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >>> >>> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >>> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >>> to the login screen. >>> >>> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >>> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >>> as it has run faultlessly. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> Liam Venter >>> >>> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >>> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> AuckLUG mailing list >>> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >>> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > > > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From David.Hawke at ppfort.net Tue Jul 28 22:02:17 2009 From: David.Hawke at ppfort.net (David Hawke) Date: Tue Jul 28 22:02:19 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <792429.16623.qm@web62007.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <792429.16623.qm@web62007.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A6ECCA9.5000603@ppfort.net> Liam Venter wrote: > The only thing that I have done to the machine since it last logged on correctly is that I let the kids watch a DVD using VLC media player. > > I am wondering if this in some way altered the video driver configurations > Doubt it - more like a sneaky update oops David H > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Hawke > To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list > Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:44:42 PM > Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine > > Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt > (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 > > Log in as you ;-) > > cd /etc/X11 > sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) > > sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg > > That should get you going again - probably reboot is the cleanest path > to X from here > > If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the boot > line and S after it which will put you in single user mode > ie > select boot kernel > e ... for edit > select second line > e ... for edit > go to the end of the line and add S > b ... for boot > > > > > David H > > //// > > > // Tim Toolman wrote: > >> Sounds like X is crashing on login. You could look at end of the X server >> log if you know how to. >> >> >> >> 2009/7/28 Liam Venter >> >> >> >>> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >>> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >>> >>> >>> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >>> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >>> >>> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >>> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >>> to the login screen. >>> >>> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >>> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >>> as it has run faultlessly. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> Liam Venter >>> >>> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >>> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> AuckLUG mailing list >>> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >>> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From David.Hawke at ppfort.net Tue Jul 28 22:07:56 2009 From: David.Hawke at ppfort.net (David Hawke) Date: Tue Jul 28 22:07:59 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <4A6ECC7E.7090603@ppfort.net> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <2662.70672.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6ECC7E.7090603@ppfort.net> Message-ID: <4A6ECDFC.4060309@ppfort.net> Darn - pesky keyboard again ... tar cvf kde_backup.tar .kde .kde4 urk ! David H David Hawke wrote: > Liam Venter wrote: >> It's probably worth mentioning that I don't get any error message >> when I try to log in to the windows style interface with the right >> password it just returns me to the login screen after a moments >> blankness. >> >> If I deliberately type the wrong password I do get a login failed >> message. >> >> So I am typing the right password but you guys are obviously right >> there is a problem with the window interface starting. >> > > Hmmm ... plan C > > Looks as though KDE doesn't like something - from the Menu in the > login screen pick failsafe > log in > back up you .kde and .kde4 directories if present then move them > somplace else ... > > eg > tar xvf kde_backup.tar .kdr .kde4 > > If that exits OK then > mv .kde .kde.bak > mv .kde4 .kde4.bak > > > exit > > Then pick KDE from the menu and log in again > > Otherwise pick Gnome and login > > > :-) > > David H > >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: David Hawke >> To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list >> Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:44:42 PM >> Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine >> >> Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt >> (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 >> >> Log in as you ;-) >> >> cd /etc/X11 >> sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) >> >> sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg >> >> That should get you going again - probably reboot is the cleanest >> path to X from here >> >> If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the >> boot line and S after it which will put you in single user mode >> ie >> select boot kernel >> e ... for edit >> select second line >> e ... for edit >> go to the end of the line and add S >> b ... for boot >> >> >> >> >> David H >> >> //// >> >> >> // Tim Toolman wrote: >> >>> Sounds like X is crashing on login. You could look at end of the X >>> server >>> log if you know how to. >>> >>> >>> >>> 2009/7/28 Liam Venter >>> >>> >>>> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >>>> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >>>> >>>> >>>> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP >>>> address from >>>> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >>>> >>>> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >>>> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then >>>> returns me >>>> to the login screen. >>>> >>>> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine >>>> for a >>>> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in >>>> the past >>>> as it has run faultlessly. >>>> >>>> Kind regards >>>> Liam Venter >>>> >>>> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >>>> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> AuckLUG mailing list >>>> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >>>> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> AuckLUG mailing list >> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> AuckLUG mailing list >> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >> > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug From csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz Tue Jul 28 22:17:51 2009 From: csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz (Liam Venter) Date: Tue Jul 28 22:18:00 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <4A6ECC7E.7090603@ppfort.net> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <2662.70672.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6ECC7E.7090603@ppfort.net> Message-ID: <518778.59141.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> ?Kind regards ________________________________ From: David Hawke To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 10:01:34 PM Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine If I do a dir as soon as I have login using failsafe option I don't see andyu .kde and .kde4 directories.? At this point I seem to be in my user directory. Is this right? Just want to make sure I am doing the right thing before I proceed with out backing up .kde and .kde4 directories Hmmm ... plan C Looks as though KDE doesn't like something - from the Menu in the login screen pick failsafe log in back up you .kde and .kde4 directories if present then move them somplace else? ... eg tar xvf kde_backup.tar .kdr .kde4 If that exits OK then mv .kde .kde.bak mv .kde4 .kde4.bak exit Then pick KDE? from the menu and log in again Otherwise pick Gnome and login :-) David H > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Hawke > To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list > Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:44:42 PM > Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine > > Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt > (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 > > Log in as you ;-) > > cd /etc/X11 > sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) > > sudo? dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg > > That should get you going again? - probably reboot is the cleanest path > to X from here > > If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the boot > line and S after it which will put you in single user mode > ie > select boot kernel > e? ... for edit > select second line > e ... for edit > go to the end of the line and add S > b ... for boot > > > > > David H > > //// > > > // Tim Toolman wrote: >? >> Sounds like X is crashing on login.? You could look at end of the X server >> log if you know how to. >> >> >> >> 2009/7/28 Liam Venter >> >>? >>? ? >>> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >>> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >>> >>> >>> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >>> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >>> >>> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >>> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >>> to the login screen. >>> >>> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >>> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >>> as it has run faultlessly. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> Liam Venter >>> >>> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >>> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> AuckLUG mailing list >>> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >>> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >>> >>>? ? >>>? ? ? >> >>? >>? ? > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > > > >? ? ? > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >? _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug Liam Venter wrote: From csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz Tue Jul 28 22:37:09 2009 From: csp_liam at yahoo.co.nz (Liam Venter) Date: Tue Jul 28 22:37:16 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine In-Reply-To: <4A6ECC7E.7090603@ppfort.net> References: <171915.19932.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6EBA7A.6000706@ppfort.net> <2662.70672.qm@web62006.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <4A6ECC7E.7090603@ppfort.net> Message-ID: <228929.67036.qm@web62003.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Thanks David I love you and want to have all your babies ?I've lost my screen layout but I am back up running ________________________________ From: David Hawke To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 10:01:34 PM Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine Liam Venter wrote: > It's probably worth mentioning that I don't get any error message when I try to log in to the windows style interface with the right password it just returns me to the login screen after a moments blankness. > > If I deliberately type the wrong password I do get a login failed message. > > So I am typing the right password but you guys are obviously right there is a problem with the window interface starting. >? Hmmm ... plan C Looks as though KDE doesn't like something - from the Menu in the login screen pick failsafe log in back up you .kde and .kde4 directories if present then move them somplace else? ... eg tar xvf kde_backup.tar .kdr .kde4 If that exits OK then mv .kde .kde.bak mv .kde4 .kde4.bak exit Then pick KDE? from the menu and log in again Otherwise pick Gnome and login :-) David H > > > > > ________________________________ > From: David Hawke > To: Auckland Linux User Group mailing list > Sent: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009 8:44:42 PM > Subject: Re: [AuckLUG] Help I suddenly can't login to my Kubuntu machine > > Get to a command prompt - Alt F1 then AltF2 if you don't get a prompt > (sometimes you only get a cursor on Alt F1 > > Log in as you ;-) > > cd /etc/X11 > sudo cp xorg.conf xorg.conf.todaysdate (or .old or .bak) > > sudo? dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg > > That should get you going again? - probably reboot is the cleanest path > to X from here > > If you can't get a console prompt, reboot, interrupt grub, edit the boot > line and S after it which will put you in single user mode > ie > select boot kernel > e? ... for edit > select second line > e ... for edit > go to the end of the line and add S > b ... for boot > > > > > David H > > //// > > > // Tim Toolman wrote: >? >> Sounds like X is crashing on login.? You could look at end of the X server >> log if you know how to. >> >> >> >> 2009/7/28 Liam Venter >> >>? >>? ? >>> The problem seemed to have started when a new windows laptop I had >>> connected to my LAN reported and IP address conflict. >>> >>> >>> I rebooted my kubuntu linux box so that it would get a new IP address from >>> the DHCP server (my ADSL router) >>> >>> However when I try to login at the password prompt the screen goes >>> momentarily blank (while it goes away to think about it) and then returns me >>> to the login screen. >>> >>> Advance warning Althought I have been running this Kubuntu machine for a >>> year I am a complete newbie as I have never had to open the hood in the past >>> as it has run faultlessly. >>> >>> Kind regards >>> Liam Venter >>> >>> mob: +64 (0)275 985 266 >>> Ph: +64 (0)9 834 6655 >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> AuckLUG mailing list >>> AuckLUG@linux.net.nz >>> http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >>> >>>? ? >>>? ? ? >> >>? >>? ? > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > > > >? ? ? > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >? _______________________________________________ AuckLUG mailing list AuckLUG@linux.net.nz http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug From stuart at hrdnz.com Wed Jul 29 09:08:20 2009 From: stuart at hrdnz.com (Stuart Mealor) Date: Wed Jul 29 09:08:49 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Re: Linux in schools Message-ID: <4DB84F5A-AEBB-4BEB-80AA-2D7C2DE24230@hrdnz.com> Quote: "I was thinking more the other way around. There are loads of sites for learning yourself. How about resources for teachers? A central repository for NZ related learning materials..." I believe one has to be careful regarding repositories. It is based on the premise that learning is about 'objects of knowledge'. Of course it's not, learning is actually a process (of change) that we go through. So communities are far more vital than repositories. We have recently launched our Moodle site for schools in NZ: http://www.moodleschool.co.nz The site officially launches at the NZ schools technology conference, ULearn in October. Moodle is the Open Source Course Management System. Used by almost every Polytechnic in NZ. And by many Universities and also schools. I would be happy to discuss if this site can dovetail with what AuckLUG are trying to achieve here? Stuart Stuart Mealor Managing Director HRDNZ (Moodle Partner) stuart@hrdnz.com www.hrdnz.com Moodle Certification Manager http://moodle.org SkypeIn: +64 (0)9 8890774 On 28/07/2009, at 7:02 PM, aucklug-request@linux.net.nz wrote: > I was thinking more the other way around. There are loads of sites for > learning yourself. How about resources for teachers? A central > repository for NZ related learning materials... From g.kloss at massey.ac.nz Wed Jul 29 13:07:14 2009 From: g.kloss at massey.ac.nz (Guy K. Kloss) Date: Wed Jul 29 13:08:06 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Linux in schools meeting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200907291307.14573.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:38:16 Nevyn wrote: > Announcing the first "Linux in Schools" (really bad working name) > meeting to be held on Wednesday 26th of August at 7pm at: Just stumbled upon OpenEd. Seems like a good name for something like that: http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/15467 Guy -- Guy K. Kloss Institute of Information and Mathematical Sciences Te Kura P?taiao o M?hiohio me P?ngarau Massey University, Albany (North Shore City, Auckland) 473 State Highway 17, Gate 1, Mailroom, Quad B Building voice: +64 9 414-0800 ext. 9585 fax: +64 9 441-8181 G.Kloss@massey.ac.nz http://www.massey.ac.nz/~gkloss From stuart at hrdnz.com Fri Jul 31 09:48:06 2009 From: stuart at hrdnz.com (Stuart Mealor) Date: Fri Jul 31 09:48:35 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] Hourly paid Ubuntu server tech work Message-ID: <264893D0-7C40-4FD1-A0F0-0EBF9AC0949B@hrdnz.com> Are we allowed to post consultancy/jobs on here? I hope so! We don't have enough work in this area to justify a full-time role, so I'm looking for someone knowledgeable that wants to earn a bit of extra cash? Today's scenario I want to use rsync to copy from a main server to a backup server I've read up, and got command line local rsync working. But to sync the remote server to my local backup server I need to use SSH. I can get SSH server running locally. I can't get SSH server running on the remote server :-( (I'm not a CLI guy, I'm using Webmin 90% of the time). I tried using Syncmin (the rsync Webmin addin). When adding a local rsync job to Cron it failed - log file tells me it can't use two remote hosts (odd, because both my directories are local in this test!) So, I'm going around in circles :-( Option 1: spend another 10 hours trying to solve it Option 2: pay someone who knows what they are doing in this area. What I'm looking for: * Someone based in Auckland/Northland (I would like to be able to meet up for coffee sometimes!) * Hourly paid (rate to be negotiated) * Expect 99% of communication to be via email/Skype * Advising on our LAMP server optimisation (currently Ubuntu 64-bit LTS) * Monitoring server when I am overseas * General security? * Good communication skills - ability to explain to me what we do and why :-) * Knowledge of or experience with Moodle would be advantageous, but not required Anyone interested please drop me an email :-) Thanks, Stuart. From freakalad at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 31 16:00:42 2009 From: freakalad at yahoo.co.uk (Jaco van der Merwe) Date: Fri Jul 31 16:00:59 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] SIP SoftPhones driving me nuts! Message-ID: <824960.82352.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Carrying on from previous discussions re VoIP: we're trialling SIP ala FreeSwitch here at work & I'm messing around with Elastix in a VM (thanks for that info again, chill'; pretty awesome). The VoIP servers, proxies, gateways, etc are great, no doubt about it, but the SoftPhones absolutely suck, or require arcane knowledge to get it in an operational condition. Options explored so far: * Twinkle: best so far, but has serious issues integrating with other apps. Pulse integration is non exsitent, or if I've managed to hack something together, audio's corrupted * Ekiga: This would've been my 1st choice, but this is seriously flawed. Inconsistent connection with little ability to address the causes * X-Lite: I'd like to avoid this for obvious reasons & Qutecom/openwengo's dead I think half of my frustration stems from the TOTAL snafu that is PulseAudio: I understand the reasoning for it, but I don't understand why audio has now been complicated to the point that it's broken. I'd like to help some laymen get VoIP on Linux, but it's not going to happen if this is the current state of affairs. To keep things simple & usable, I have to recommend skype, since a service is only as usable as the client software If anyone has any insight into which Softphones will work on GNU/Linux (Ubuntu) off the beat, without any hacking or tweaking, or how I can soothe my pulse headaches, that'll be much appreciated (& I'll buy you a beer at the next meet) From g.kloss at massey.ac.nz Fri Jul 31 16:27:49 2009 From: g.kloss at massey.ac.nz (Guy K. Kloss) Date: Fri Jul 31 16:28:19 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] SIP SoftPhones driving me nuts! In-Reply-To: <824960.82352.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <824960.82352.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200907311627.49959.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:00:42 Jaco van der Merwe wrote: > To keep things simple & usable, I have to recommend skype, since a service > is only as usable as the client software On Skype I've had the issue that I could only get it _somewhat_ reliably to work using the OSS version. The normal version gives me the 100% CPU load freeze! But with OSS it only works if nothing else is using the audio device, which mostly happens after a while anyway. So for me to use Skype it's always a fresh login and then use. Unfortunately Skype didn't get back to their complaining (and also paying) customers on the Linux platform. Guy -- Guy K. Kloss Institute of Information and Mathematical Sciences Te Kura P?taiao o M?hiohio me P?ngarau Massey University, Albany (North Shore City, Auckland) 473 State Highway 17, Gate 1, Mailroom, Quad B Building voice: +64 9 414-0800 ext. 9585 fax: +64 9 441-8181 G.Kloss@massey.ac.nz http://www.massey.ac.nz/~gkloss From djlewis78 at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 17:43:51 2009 From: djlewis78 at gmail.com (Daniel Lewis) Date: Fri Jul 31 17:50:50 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] SIP SoftPhones driving me nuts! In-Reply-To: <200907311627.49959.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> References: <824960.82352.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <200907311627.49959.g.kloss@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <416653940907302243u530d3641k74836598eef7e6f7@mail.gmail.com> while on topic about skype http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/2708421/Shock-threat-to-kill-Skype daniel. On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Guy K. Kloss wrote: > On Fri, 31 Jul 2009 16:00:42 Jaco van der Merwe wrote: > > To keep things simple & usable, I have to recommend skype, since a > service > > is only as usable as the client software > > On Skype I've had the issue that I could only get it _somewhat_ reliably to > work using the OSS version. The normal version gives me the 100% CPU load > freeze! But with OSS it only works if nothing else is using the audio > device, > which mostly happens after a while anyway. So for me to use Skype it's > always > a fresh login and then use. > > Unfortunately Skype didn't get back to their complaining (and also paying) > customers on the Linux platform. > > Guy > > -- > Guy K. Kloss > Institute of Information and Mathematical Sciences > Te Kura P?taiao o M?hiohio me P?ngarau > Massey University, Albany (North Shore City, Auckland) > 473 State Highway 17, Gate 1, Mailroom, Quad B Building > voice: +64 9 414-0800 ext. 9585 fax: +64 9 441-8181 > G.Kloss@massey.ac.nz http://www.massey.ac.nz/~gkloss > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug > From Chilling_Silence at orcon.net.nz Fri Jul 31 20:51:15 2009 From: Chilling_Silence at orcon.net.nz (Chilling_Silence) Date: Fri Jul 31 20:51:25 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] SIP SoftPhones driving me nuts! In-Reply-To: <824960.82352.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <824960.82352.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2987f0d40907310151m5db81155v11a5140cac03903b@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Jaco van der Merwe wrote: > I think half of my frustration stems from the TOTAL snafu that is > PulseAudio: I understand the reasoning for it, but I don't understand why > audio has now been complicated to the point that it's broken. > > I'd like to help some laymen get VoIP on Linux, but it's not going to > happen if this is the current state of affairs. > To keep things simple & usable, I have to recommend skype, since a service > is only as usable as the client software > > If anyone has any insight into which Softphones will work on GNU/Linux > (Ubuntu) off the beat, without any hacking or tweaking, or how I can soothe > my pulse headaches, that'll be much appreciated (& I'll buy you a beer at > the next meet) You'll see a lot of people complaining about Ubuntu's implementation of PulseAudio, try something like Mandriva which supposedly does it the best. Skype for Linux also blows, no new release for AGES now (At least there wasnt a month or two ago when I last dabbled with it). I'm biased but I always recommend people avoid Skype like the plague ... Google Talk / XMPP where possible, for many reasons. Just because there hasnt been a full release recently from QuteCom doesnt mean it's totally stalled and unusable, far from it. Sure its not the *best* Softphone, but I've never been a large fan of Softphones anyways. Get yourself an IP Phone all the way! In fact I've been trialling the NetComm V90S which has been brilliant thus far! Only down side is no iLBC support ;-) Suggestions in summary: 1) Stay away from PulseAudio on Ubuntu 2) Stay away from Skype! 3) Stay away from Softphones if possible, use an IP Phone / ATA for better results Hope this helps. Chill. From David.Hawke at ppfort.net Fri Jul 31 22:44:34 2009 From: David.Hawke at ppfort.net (David Hawke) Date: Fri Jul 31 22:44:48 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] SIP SoftPhones driving me nuts! In-Reply-To: <2987f0d40907310151m5db81155v11a5140cac03903b@mail.gmail.com> References: <824960.82352.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <2987f0d40907310151m5db81155v11a5140cac03903b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A72CB12.3040908@ppfort.net> Chilling_Silence wrote: > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Jaco van der Merwe > wrote: > > >> I think half of my frustration stems from the TOTAL snafu that is >> PulseAudio: I understand the reasoning for it, but I don't understand why >> audio has now been complicated to the point that it's broken. >> >> >> > > > You'll see a lot of people complaining about Ubuntu's implementation of > PulseAudio, try something like Mandriva which supposedly does it the best. > > > > Suggestions in summary: > 1) Stay away from PulseAudio on Ubuntu > +2 :-) - apparently none of the SIP phone applications are Pulse aware Twinkle seems to be the best under Jaunty - all of the others are clumsy or incomplete. For our environment with Trixbox in the back end, Twinkle is superior to the Polycom desk units. > 2) Stay away from Skype! > Only bother with chat - voice quality too variable > 3) Stay away from Softphones if possible, use an IP Phone / ATA for better > results > -1 :-( as above David H From justin at skull.co.nz Fri Jul 31 22:50:06 2009 From: justin at skull.co.nz (Justin Cook) Date: Fri Jul 31 22:50:17 2009 Subject: [AuckLUG] SIP SoftPhones driving me nuts! In-Reply-To: <4A72CB12.3040908@ppfort.net> References: <824960.82352.qm@web26102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <2987f0d40907310151m5db81155v11a5140cac03903b@mail.gmail.com> <4A72CB12.3040908@ppfort.net> Message-ID: <93a52e0e0907310350x3baf1c0cxbf4528e09638a0e3@mail.gmail.com> Skype's days may well be numbered anyway: http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/07/31/0714232/Licensing-Dispute-Threatens-Future-of-Skype A lot of the comments on that article are quite valid. It's an obselete closed-source client. Justin Cook Skull http://www.skull.co.nz justin@skull.co.nz 021 27 00 222 Start by doing what's necessary; then do what's possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible - St. Francis of Assisi 2009/7/31 David Hawke > Chilling_Silence wrote: > >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:00 PM, Jaco van der Merwe >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> I think half of my frustration stems from the TOTAL snafu that is >>> PulseAudio: I understand the reasoning for it, but I don't understand why >>> audio has now been complicated to the point that it's broken. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > >> >> >> You'll see a lot of people complaining about Ubuntu's implementation of >> PulseAudio, try something like Mandriva which supposedly does it the best. >> >> >> >> > > >> Suggestions in summary: >> 1) Stay away from PulseAudio on Ubuntu >> >> > +2 :-) - apparently none of the SIP phone applications are Pulse aware > > Twinkle seems to be the best under Jaunty - all of the others are clumsy or > incomplete. For our environment with Trixbox in the back end, Twinkle is > superior to the Polycom desk units. > > > 2) Stay away from Skype! >> >> > Only bother with chat - voice quality too variable > >> 3) Stay away from Softphones if possible, use an IP Phone / ATA for better >> results >> >> > -1 :-( as above > > David H > > > > > _______________________________________________ > AuckLUG mailing list > AuckLUG@linux.net.nz > http://www.linux.net.nz/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/aucklug >